esrice goes to Camden, TN to train with Tactical Response

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  • Bill of Rights

    Cogito, ergo porto.
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    Apr 26, 2008
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    Same question to you...
    Scenario: A group of strangers, a couple days of class/range time...

    Would you be the photographer?
    Would you take part on the firing line if a photographer was beside your target stand?

    I'm not a photographer, and my skill level with a camera would not be what anyone would want. Disregarding that, would I be the photographer? It would depend on the shooter. Would I be the shooter? Part of that answer would depend on the photographer, but overall, given the thought about it since I discussed it, I would be much more open to the idea.

    I'd be apprehensive, of course, with a pistol. I know my skill level. I trust it, and ultimately, yes, I'd likely take the shot if I had an instructor telling me that there was a lesson I'd learn doing so that I could learn no other way (other than the lesson of what it feels like to actually shoot a human being- that lesson I hope to never learn.)

    I've spent a lot of years learning how to manage the adrenalin dump. If I say so myself, I'm pretty good at it, but as Shay said upthread, I don't expect my critical incident performance to rise above the level of my training.

    I don't expect to convince anyone of the wisdom of this type of training. It took me a while to wrap my head around it, too. If someone gets there, it will be because s/he kept an open mind, gave it much thought, and finally got to the point where s/he does so because s/he sees it as such. If someone doesn't "get there", it may be because of any of those things not falling into place. I prefer to think that the falling down point would be the latter, that s/he kept an open mind and gave it thought, but simply decided differently from me.

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    printcraft

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    We need to train zombies to operate a camera.

    No problem! :yesway:

    MegaCon_2009_Gunshot_Victim.jpg



    Oh and..........

    stupid_on_a_whole_new_level.jpg
     

    cedartop

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    I agree with your disagreement in the sense that there is value in the exercise. I just find the risk/reward ratio off when it comes to first-time students. If I trusted the shooter I'd be more inclined to perform the exercise as the photographer.

    For first-time students? I'd put their target next to their new truck.

    Taken at face value, I agree with Shay. There are not that many ways to accomplish the realism that is being tried for here. FOF is a great tool, but it is limited in some respects.

    Evan really hits on the crux of the matter. Risk to reward ratio and where/when do you start. All of us who do this have to make that a major consideration. I would have no problem with what JY did, with a different group. I would never do that with a class of first timers or those who haven't trained together before. I want to prepare my students as well as possible for real world violence, but I can't lose sight of their safety to do it.

    So not counting military units who train together all the time, and have an assumed risk that is higher than the private sector, where is this appropriate? Judgement call. Maybe in a group like WETSU is part of. Maybe at one of our alumni only regional training groups. Ken Hackathorn has done something along the same lines and took a lot of crap for it. Its my opinion that it can only be done with highly motivated, highly skilled members of a team/group. The flip side to that then is, how do you prepare the regular gal/guy who is not going to train that much but still might need that edge someday? Pretty much the way we have been doing it, Square range training with movement and 360 degree awareness along with Force on Force training.
     

    Shay

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    I agree with your disagreement in the sense that there is value in the exercise. I just find the risk/reward ratio off when it comes to first-time students. If I trusted the shooter I'd be more inclined to perform the exercise as the photographer.

    First time students or not, will these people leave the class and carry guns in public?

    Force on Force can help develop better decision making skills and coolness under stress. It is not a substitute for having real consequences and accountability when you pull the trigger.
     

    TheRude1

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    I'm heading to the range to tomorrow and could use some nice pics. Can I get a volunteer to help me out? I'll be shooting a 1911 and an AK74. I only need you to stay down range for about 10 minutes and I'll buy you lunch afterwards. I'll also provide the camera equipment.

    Hell I'd do it but I dont get off work till 3:30
    I've been shot at plenty so someone not trying to hit me would be a nice change

    Wens I dont go in till 2:30 so I could do something in the am
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Good discussion so far (even if there was a little drama...;) ).

    Since the topic is leaning towards the body's response towards having a person down range, and then also the response of the person down range, let me share this story (not one that I'm proud of, but learned from).


    My family owns some property in the rural part of this county. We shoot their regularly, and have a semi-formal "range" established. That range consists of an open field that leads to a small woods, with several miles of open fields behind it. No berms or the like, but miles of open fields and a woods in the direction of fire that minimize the risk of hitting something undesirable behind the target.

    As this is active farmland, and also active hunting grounds, I've made it a matter of habit over the years to always drive down behind the range on some small lanes and gravel roads to be absolutely certain nobody is down range. I visually look for people, vehicles, etc. that might be in the vacinity. If any are seen are suspected, I don't shoot.

    It was a routine day, and I was sighting in my new to me ACOG. I set up a quick and dirty target at 25 to get on paper, and planned to move out from there. I had checked for people and vehicles down range, and saw nothing, so started firing.

    After 5-6 shots and some adjustments, I got behind the gun and began to acquire the target. I flipped off the safety, and started to take up the first stage of my trigger. Then, by the grace of God, I saw just above the target some movement that shouldn't have been there. I backed off the trigger, flipped the safety back on and looked up, and saw a person on a 4 wheeler heading right towards me. Not at a slight angle, but right towards me...RIGHT DOWN THE INTENDED LINE OF FIRE. There was no doubt at all that if I'd have squeezed off the shot, he would have been hit. We were both to blame...me for not checking more thoroughly, and him for driving right at me instead of circling around.

    Turns out it was one of my relatives that was down in the woods setting up a ground blind for some hunting that fall. He had ridden the 4 wheeler down from another part of the property, and drove it into the woods. I couldn't see him at all of course as I hadn't actually walked through the woods, just driven up and seen nothing obvious.


    In a matter of seconds, I went from confused as to what and why he was doing in the line of fire, to almost sick to my stomach from the adrenaline rush. I walked towards him as he drove up to where I was shooting, and we both said "What the ***** are you doing?" Both of us were pumped full of adrenaline and shaking. Realizing I had shot rounds prior to seeing him, my next question was "Are you ok." Again, by the grace of God he hadn't been hit, but had heard rounds impacting near him. That prompted him to come up and try to waive me off.


    My point is that I had a very massive adrenaline dump and a very adverse reaction to seeing someone in my direct line of fire. My first view didn't provide me with the information of "friend or foe" just "human." I hope that my reaction was somewhat due to the fact that it would be very unlikely anyone coming from the woods would have been foe, and that it was highly likely it would have been friend. None the less, I was shaken up.




    So...to those that have been down range under live fire, and also participated in live fire at another human, do training scenarios, even those with simunition or blanks accurately replicate the emotional and chemical response you get from seeing someone in your sights, or having rounds coming in?
     

    the1kidd03

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    Good discussion so far (even if there was a little drama...;) ).

    Since the topic is leaning towards the body's response towards having a person down range, and then also the response of the person down range, let me share this story (not one that I'm proud of, but learned from).


    My family owns some property in the rural part of this county. We shoot their regularly, and have a semi-formal "range" established. That range consists of an open field that leads to a small woods, with several miles of open fields behind it. No berms or the like, but miles of open fields and a woods in the direction of fire that minimize the risk of hitting something undesirable behind the target.

    As this is active farmland, and also active hunting grounds, I've made it a matter of habit over the years to always drive down behind the range on some small lanes and gravel roads to be absolutely certain nobody is down range. I visually look for people, vehicles, etc. that might be in the vacinity. If any are seen are suspected, I don't shoot.

    It was a routine day, and I was sighting in my new to me ACOG. I set up a quick and dirty target at 25 to get on paper, and planned to move out from there. I had checked for people and vehicles down range, and saw nothing, so started firing.

    After 5-6 shots and some adjustments, I got behind the gun and began to acquire the target. I flipped off the safety, and started to take up the first stage of my trigger. Then, by the grace of God, I saw just above the target some movement that shouldn't have been there. I backed off the trigger, flipped the safety back on and looked up, and saw a person on a 4 wheeler heading right towards me. Not at a slight angle, but right towards me...RIGHT DOWN THE INTENDED LINE OF FIRE. There was no doubt at all that if I'd have squeezed off the shot, he would have been hit. We were both to blame...me for not checking more thoroughly, and him for driving right at me instead of circling around.

    Turns out it was one of my relatives that was down in the woods setting up a ground blind for some hunting that fall. He had ridden the 4 wheeler down from another part of the property, and drove it into the woods. I couldn't see him at all of course as I hadn't actually walked through the woods, just driven up and seen nothing obvious.


    In a matter of seconds, I went from confused as to what and why he was doing in the line of fire, to almost sick to my stomach from the adrenaline rush. I walked towards him as he drove up to where I was shooting, and we both said "What the ***** are you doing?" Both of us were pumped full of adrenaline and shaking. Realizing I had shot rounds prior to seeing him, my next question was "Are you ok." Again, by the grace of God he hadn't been hit, but had heard rounds impacting near him. That prompted him to come up and try to waive me off.


    My point is that I had a very massive adrenaline dump and a very adverse reaction to seeing someone in my direct line of fire. My first view didn't provide me with the information of "friend or foe" just "human." I hope that my reaction was somewhat due to the fact that it would be very unlikely anyone coming from the woods would have been foe, and that it was highly likely it would have been friend. None the less, I was shaken up.




    So...to those that have been down range under live fire, and also participated in live fire at another human, do training scenarios, even those with simunition or blanks accurately replicate the emotional and chemical response you get from seeing someone in your sights, or having rounds coming in?

    As previously indicated, NOTHING I've experienced has ACCURATELY induced the same chemical response than that of incoming rounds. They even begin to take place when in a live fire training environment shooting past/close to one another just to a lesser degree. They do get adrenaline going to an extent which I would affiliate more with extreme sports and the same for the increased heart rate, but aside from that the other chemical induced "feelings" are not the same to any degree IME. Each time it is experienced though the effects decrease as though you are getting "accustomed" to it or "losing the fear" so to speak (for lack of better explanation).

    I can't speak of emotional stressors or its affiliation to aiming at others.

    I do believe that likely a great deal of your emotional response was from your individual moral beliefs and the realization of your endangering an innocent though, not necessarily from merely aiming "at" someone.
     

    Roadie

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    Sissy! :D



    Let them know that I will provide the wet wipes.



    Yeah, that would make me rush a little, so YOU would probably have to stay down range about 15 minutes.



    Santorini and you can even order from the vegan menu. :yesway:

    Heck, I might do that for Santorini! :cool:
     

    the1kidd03

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    When presented with an actual life threatening situation, such as being shot at, the human body undergoes a plethora of changes intended to spark a reaction to improve their survivability. This massive combination of incoming data to their brain often results in a "cognitive failure" of sorts in which people simply "freeze" and are incapable of necessary reaction. Some attribute this as being part of the "flight" response and in SOME cases that is true, but it is also often driven from just an overload of information and inability to react to it because it's such a new experience.

    This is actually more common than many people realize and is therefore sort of a focal point of training for military combat instructors which they regularly address and attempt to spot those with the potential for it. It's better to detect it, address it, and try to help people to beat it in training then on the battlefield where their actions or lack thereof can result in loss of people's lives.

    In this context, the civilian world is no different. While civilians are not on a battlefield in the usual sense, when seeking training they are preparing themselves to be more adaptable to situations and increase their chances of survival in these hostile situations. IMO, if they have not experienced even the slightest amount of this ACTUAL reaction in their body then they are not AS prepared as they COULD be. They have no idea how they will react if they haven't experienced the affects which are largely out of their control. This has the potential to put them at risk when presented with such a situation. They very likely could be an "overload candidate" and have never realized because they have not experienced the chemical reaction to a threat, when adrenaline and heart rate are only part of it.

    For this reason, I think it is a necessary risk but one which needs to be presented in proper contexts (ie not in a class of first time shooters). Not necessarily applicable to a cameraman, but certainly to combatives students.
     
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    WETSU

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    Since I was mentioned in this therad, I will weigh in on the topic of stress inoculation, training and trusting your fellow shooters.

    My crew of Merry Adventurers have been training together for a long time now, but when we have rolled a new guy in, it was crawl, walk, run, over a period of a year really, before he was trusted to be rolled into multi-man team bounding drills, with men down range of his muzzle.

    We use these bounding drills to induce maximum stress onto our guys. The shooting and moving becomes automatic after a while. What comes next is decision making, situational awareness and clear communications. So we start introducing multiple casualties, broken guns and proper radio usage, to get what your team needs ASAP. If a team leader can handle that and still get off an ACE report and request a QRF and vector it in while shooting and reallocating his rapidly depleting resources, he is starting to get it. Some never do, and thats okay, because they are still solid, safe shooters and team players.

    As far as the photgrapher down range silliness, Jay has been downrange from badguys trying to kill him with PKMs and AKs, being down range from some student who is NOT trying to shoot him is a nonissue. Mindset.
     

    esrice

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    Looks like the "Fighting Pistol with James Yeager" courses start the month after I take mine. I'm sure some folks here are disappointed. :(

    :D

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwb4pYFt8kc[/ame]
     
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