Elkhart teens charged with Felony Murder after home invasion

[Joniki]

I guess here I part ways with most in this thread. None of those four surviving scumbags murdered anyone. Homeowner had a good shoot, he did not murder anyone. One scumbag criminal is dead thanks to the righteous actions of the home owner, which I 100% fully support. I can't support those four b@st@ards being charged with felony murder as none of them murdered anyone. I understand prosecutors are within their option to level this charge because there is legislation that supports it, I just don't agree with it. In my view they may as well be charged also with stealing the space shuttle, which they also did not do.

I agree with L-0.

I just can't understand how the other three scumbags get charged with murder.

Four kids break into a YMCA swimming and one drowns, do the other three get charged with murder?

Four teenagers steal a car and the driver is drunk and hit a tree killing himself. Do the accomplices get charged with murder?

 

[actaeon277]

Anyone notice lately that there seems to be a big push lately to show criminals as the "victims".
Unless there is a gun.
Anyone doesn't use the gun, is a victim.

 

[churchmouse]

Anyone notice lately that there seems to be a big push lately to show criminals as the "victims".
Unless there is a gun.
Anyone doesn't use the gun, is a victim.

Yeah. Some of that in this thread as well.

 

[actaeon277]

I agree with L-0.

I just can't understand how the other three scumbags get charged with murder.

Four kids break into a YMCA swimming and one drowns, do the other three get charged with murder?

Four teenagers steal a car and the driver is drunk and hit a tree killing himself. Do the accomplices get charged with murder?

If you steal a car and drive it drunk, is it foreseeable that someone might be killed? Yes
What if instead of hitting a tree, they hit a car, and kill a family? Still foreseeable.

If someone brings a gun, another person the bullets, a third person loads it, and a fourth puts it in the hands of an untrained random 7 year old, do you just charge the fourth when someone gets shot?

 

[churchmouse]

I agree with L-0.

I just can't understand how the other three scumbags get charged with murder.

Four kids break into a YMCA swimming and one drowns, do the other three get charged with murder?


Four teenagers steal a car and the driver is drunk and hit a tree killing himself. Do the accomplices get charged with murder?

And this actually makes sense to you....seriously.....

 

[Joniki]

And this actually makes sense to you....seriously.....

No, it doesn't make sense. Neither does charging three kids who broke into a house with murder when NONE of them did the shooting.

The homeowner had a clean shoot.

The scumbag is dead. Great!

 

[printcraft]

No, it doesn't make sense. Neither does charging three kids who broke into a house with murder when NONE of them did the shooting.

The homeowner had a clean shoot.

The scumbag is dead. Great!

All 4 perpetrated the crime that resulted in the death of 1.
They all planned the crime, they are accomplices in the act.
Let's try another scenario, they all break into a bank but only one grabbed the cash before being caught so let's let the other go because they didn't rob the bank.
Does Not Compute.
They didn't have to go..... boo freakity hoo hoo.

 

[level0]

I guess here I part ways with most in this thread. None of those four surviving scumbags murdered anyone. Homeowner had a good shoot, he did not murder anyone. One scumbag criminal is dead thanks to the righteous actions of the home owner, which I 100% fully support. I can't support those four b@st@ards being charged with felony murder as none of them murdered anyone. I understand prosecutors are within their option to level this charge because there is legislation that supports it, I just don't agree with it. In my view they may as well be charged also with stealing the space shuttle, which they also did not do.

I didn't know a shuttle had been stolen. I do know a home invasion resulting in death did occur. In many ways it does seem harsh but it is the law. I have no doubt that had they gotten away with the crime, it would not have been their last and only God knows what those future crimes would have escalated to. At least for now these young people will not be on the street. I for one am sick and tired of crimes being committed by people with lengthy records including felonies & even murder that serve virtually no time and are out of prison for various reasons.

Emphasis added, and illustrates precisely my point. A shuttle had not been stolen at all, and in this crime no one was murdered.

 

[Joniki]

All 4 perpetrated the crime that resulted in the death of 1.
They all planned the crime, they are accomplices in the act.
Let's try another scenario, they all break into a bank but only one grabbed the cash before being caught so let's let the other go because they didn't rob the bank.
Does Not Compute.
They didn't have to go..... boo freakity hoo hoo.

Great scenario...

Four kids break into a bank. One kid grabs the cash and gets his hand caught in the drawer. The other three run and set off the alarm system. The cops come and shoot the kid with his hand caught in the drawer.

Who gets charged with the murder?

We can banter back and forth for years. I just do not understand how you can up bundle a criminal charge.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I just can't understand how the other three scumbags get charged with murder.

Four kids break into a YMCA swimming and one drowns, do the other three get charged with murder?

Four teenagers steal a car and the driver is drunk and hit a tree killing himself. Do the accomplices get charged with murder?

Felony murder rule is an "intent substitute" (transferred intent). The intent to commit the felony (Burglary, Robbery, Arson, etc.) is the "malice aforethought" and is thus substituted for the intent to kill.

A,B, C, D agree to commit a residential Burglary. Upon entering the dwelling, Mr. Homeowner burns down A. The prosecution, under felony murder, need to prove the intent to burgle, not the intent to kill.

See if this helps:

Felony-Murder Rule legal definition of Felony-Murder Rule

Felony murder rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Four kids break into a bank. One kid grabs the cash and gets his hand caught in the drawer. The other three run and set off the alarm system. The cops come and shoot the kid with his hand caught in the drawer.

Who gets charged with the murder?

The other three are liable for Felony Murder of their fallen co-conspirator.

 

[level0]

I know it's the law, I understand the language behind it, I just don't agree with it. I would not convict these scumbags of felony murder as they murdered no one.

 

[printcraft]

Great scenario...

Four kids break into a bank. One kid grabs the cash and gets his hand caught in the drawer. The other three run and set off the alarm system. The cops come and shoot the kid with his hand caught in the drawer.

Who gets charged with the murder?

We can banter back and forth for years. I just do not understand how you can up bundle a criminal charge.

Their actions resulted in the murder.
They set this course of events in motion, the cops didn't do it.
It's not an accident or act of God.
They are responsible.

The lack of responsibility for ones own actions and the dismissal of those bad actions on the whole is one reason why we have the societal problems that we do.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I know it's the law, I understand the language behind it, I just don't agree with it. I would not convict these scumbags of felony murder as they murdered no one.

You may get your wish.

Appellate counsel for the survivors have been waiting for a case like this. Defendnet is abuzz.

Much talk about this going up to SCOTUS.

 

[Joniki]

I know it's the law, I understand the language behind it, I just don't agree with it. I would not convict these scumbags of felony murder as they murdered no one.

We are a voice in a storm.

 

[ziggy]

Breaking in to a YMCA swimming pool is not a fleony so the felony murder rule would not apply if one kid drowned.
The crime that resulted in the death has to be a felony. B&E of an occupied dwelling is a felony so the felony murder rule is applied.

Not a universally applied rule, but not necessarily a bad rule. A good time for prosecutorial discretion. In this case, I would say 'yes' especially if these kids have a history of bad behavior. On the other hand, if one does not, and was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, then maybe his case deserves a second look.

 

[churchmouse]

I know it's the law, I understand the language behind it, I just don't agree with it. I would not convict these scumbags of felony murder as they murdered no one.

So riddle me this.....They went into this with intent, someone dies from that intent. They get short sentences and are back out roaming the streets with more....wait for it....intent.
These kids are not going to be saved in the penal system. They will be hardened when they get out. What if it is your house they target next.
Have you not been watching lately. Most all of these invasions/murders/robbery's are repeat offenders. 13 years old, invade a house, lock down for a very long time. The mindset is in place. Our system is not designed to save anyone.

Personally I want them locked down for eternity but that will not happen. Yes, they are responsible for putting themselves in that position....they wrote the check, time to cash it.

 

[churchmouse]

We are a voice in a storm.

Well, yeah.
You have every right to your views and opinions.

 

[Denny347]

No, it doesn't make sense. Neither does charging three kids who broke into a house with murder when NONE of them did the shooting.

The homeowner had a clean shoot.

The scumbag is dead. Great!

Well the answer to this debate lies in the question, "Was it a foreseeable consequence of breaking into someone's home to be shot or killed?" That is where the debate stems from. Some say YES and some say NO. I do not pretend to know the answer but I also won't shed a tear about these kids in prison. I am TIRED of kids breaking into houses for the hell of it. The house is a person's castle. The place where ALL should feel safe and secure. Going to jail for a long time for violating that sanctity is ok by me.

 

[Denny347]

I know it's the law, I understand the language behind it, I just don't agree with it. I would not convict these scumbags of felony murder as they murdered no one.

Did their actions lead to the kid's death? I'm not answering, just asking. If they did then maybe they got what they deserved. If not, a higher court will remedy this.