Drunk graduate shot after wandering into home

[emsdial911]

No, ted it didn't sway me a bit. I don't think I need shoot/no shoot training. Would it of been a mistake to not shoot this person? ridiculous! lets take an example. when I entered my neighbors house in the middle of the night uninvited it was to drag his drunk ass off the couch, throw him outside and then to put out the kitchen fire that he set before he sat down in a stupor. It took a full nelson hold to get him out and then a body slam to get him off my back. would he of been justified and legal to shoot me? hell yes, but still a mistake. How about me shooting him? drunk, arson, assault? hell no, I was in his house! I saved his drunken life. and his house and probably a neighbors house as well. I guess that maybe under those circumstances you would shoot me. How about the fireman if he had been quicker? The police came also. they would have done the very same things I did.
I dont go for my gun any more than I go for a screwdriver or for a fork. they are all tools to be used as appropriate. when I can't slap the crap out of a tiny little girl then I suppose I will use the tool I need. The tool needed here was courage. I don't know why the homeowners were so afraid but they were. It turns out that there was no danger. It was pointed out that the girl got the "stupid prize". However she didn't know that this would happen when she got drunk. No excuse? ok. Now lets look at the homeowners. Afraid in the dark they choose deadly force to protect themselves. Now they find that they have shot an unarmed drunk girl. Anti gunners point them out as typical, Their neighbors are talking as we are. the man probably feels a coward and is ashamed. his wife probably feels horrible. These are also logical ramifications of their decisions, same as the girl. A bad deal all around. Under these conditions I am not prosecuting anyone. people just need to make better decisions. Girls decision, not immediately life thretening. Homeowners decision, immediately life threatening. The guy with the gun was the only one who knew it was a shootout. The higher responsibility is his.

First off and officer or a firefighter would IDENTIFYthemself when you told them to leave or someone would be yelling that the house is on fire trying to get the attention of the home owner. I'm sure it wasn't "get out"BANG.
Second Manson's girls were tiny little things and look atwhat they accomplished. An eight inch knife to the gut can be very serious.Drugs and alcohol can give even the tiniest girl the strength of a gorilla besides small girls are scrappy in the first place. I really wouldn't want to confront someone especially if I don't know what they are on.

 

[JettaKnight]

Can you really shoot somebody like this? I would have a really hard time shooting a little pixie of a chick, especially an unarmed drunk one. Even if I "feared for my life" (really?) I believe I would send my wife in to slap her **** off. I don't just start shooting, even if I can. What's next, 5 year old girls? I want everyone to school me on why this is a good shoot.

You just yell, "She's coming right at us!"

Seriously, it's dark, it's the middle of the night, someone's entering the bedroom despite commands to halt, the next thing to do is shoot. How do you know what weapons the intruder has? Is she a druggie with hepatitis laced needles? How do you know what combat skills the intruder has? You argue she's a pixie chick, I argue she's an unknown threat and intruder that refuses to halt. Why cancel your advantage (distance and a gun) by closing the distance to hand to hand combat range? Maybe you're willing to send your wife into the fray, but my wife will be behindme and protected in this event.

Like it's been said, she's lucky to be alive. Personally, I'd hate to be the homeowner right now, I'm imagine he's second guessing his decision just like you are.

Now will she sue the shooter? Who pays the cleaning bill?

 

[Ted]

...The only extrasensory powers I have are courage and control. I have been in several shoot/don't shoot situations in my long life.....Still it was a mistake. Hindsight? sure, but preventable with a little bit of courage.

Several shoot/don't shoot situations? Really? Were these scenarios while in the act of being employed professionally? How many in your own home? How many intruders woke you up when you were in your bedroom?

It seems to me that the potential shooting situation avoided, is the best situation of all.

But I digress. Please share with the group, of the courage you exercise to prevent yourself from having to discharge a weapon. I'm betting that you're just full of yourself.

 

[JettaKnight]

Several shoot/don't shoot situations? Really? Were these scenarios while in the act of being employed professionally? How many in your own home? How many intruders woke you up when you were in your bedroom?

It seems to me that the potential shooting situation avoided, is the best situation of all.

But I digress. Please share with the group, of the courage you exercise to prevent yourself from having to discharge a weapon. I'm betting that you're just full of yourself.

I've been in several, too. Every time I see a bag of Skittles.

I call BS, too. Courage means different things to different people. Ironically, here is a case where courage is equated to inaction.

 

[JetGirl]

• Sleeping
• Dark
• Intruder
• Advancing through shouts of "STOP!"=Aggressive behavior
• Drug use unknown
• Weapons unknown
• Accomplices unknown

1. Are there others?
2. Are they armed?
3. Where are they?

 

[Ted]

• Sleeping
• Dark
• Intruder
• Advancing through shouts of "STOP!"=Aggressive behavior
• Drug use unknown
• Weapons unknown
• Accomplices unknown

1. Are there others?
2. Are they armed?
3. Where are they?

YSYEO already stated such an argument didn't sway him in the tiniest bit.

 

[JetGirl]

YSYEO already stated such an argument didn't sway him in the tiniest bit.

Then I'm guessing he's one of those types that does not adhere to the principle of "if it ain't your door, don't open it" (whether unlocked or not).

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Lots of people are making assumptions about me when they know nothing about me at all. It is interesting that these same people are also advising a shoot first before more facts are in policy. I detect a common characteristic developing when they make their decisions. a few guys asked, and so they shall receive.

My good friend asked me to help him extract his daughter from an abusive marriage. Her husband was a member of the Aryans and was violent. I didn't approve of getting between a married couple, but after talking to the daughter did it anyway. Yes, I knew full well that I was doing a wrong thing. We went to the east side tattoo joint where they both worked and after blocking while the girl ran away with her mom, The dad then confronted the husband to explain what had just happened. The well over 6 foot 325 pound aryian flew into a rage and started waiving the largest pistol I ever saw while his 2 "brothers" looked on. When the huge pistols came out I intervened. I gave him the dad voice and he stopped to look. I explained that it was exactly this behavior that lost him his wife in the first place. He raged "Why would you do this to me?" I answered that I did it because my road dog asked me to. I said that I knew what I had done was wrong, and I did it for the love of my friend and his daughter. At this point he was just stunned. I suggested that the girls father leave and I locked the door behind him as he left. I told the guy that this wasn't going to go well at all if he didn't settle down. There was only one action that could make this come out well, and that was to do nothing. If he did this, It would be the first responsible thing that he had ever done in his life and his wife would see that. Any other action would not end up well no matter how it turned out, and it could possibly not go his way. His wife would see that also. Long story short, we talked for 45 minutes. He was a frightened child in a huge tattooed klansman's body. I counseled him like the father he never knew should have. I told him what he had to do to win back his wife. I gave him a phone number so we could talk more about it. When I opened the door, my buddy was there frantic with 4 policemen. They were sure that I was Killed. I told the cops there was no problem, just rapping with my buddies. 3 Aryans agreed and everybody went home. I never drew or fired my .357 magnum that was in my front pocket the whole time. It wasn't necessary. Three weeks later the same tattoo parlor was raided and everybody arrested for manufacture and sale of crystal meth.....

Now many of you will wail and cry that this is all a lie. It will be the sad sound of small little people who never stick their neck out in any meaningful way. I grew up in the streets of the east side in the 60"s and 70's. I remember the Grimm Reapers and the Barons. I remember the shootout on Ritter street between the Outlaws and another group whose name escapes me at this moment. I have been carrying a gun since I was 14 years old and I have learned in all that time that you don't just start shooting! More often than not, you don't really know what the facts are. Now THAT was a rant.... If we are all enemies now I will move on to TheFiringline.com. If we can all have our own opinions and discuss without calling names (arrogant, among others) then I would just as well hang around in a superior forum like this one.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I would think that we need to remove the single largest element of bias from this discussion. It is easy to play Monday morning quarterback looking at the picture of a shot home invader who many would tend to give most of us guys ideas of shooting that don't involve firearms. The homeowners were in the situation of waking up, trying to get the fog out of their heads, and deal with an unknown person invading their bedroom while completely disregarding their instructions to leave. All they know is that there is a vague form invading not only their home, but its inner sanctum which they happen to be occupying. I have no idea how to paint this as a bad shoot even if I personally might be given to a number of ideas that do not involve hot lead. I know that was extra blunt, but come on. How can you in good conscience condemn anyone for shooting an unknown bogey-person?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Lots of people are making assumptions about me when they know nothing about me at all. It is interesting that these same people are also advising a shoot first before more facts are in policy. I detect a common characteristic developing when they make their decisions. a few guys asked, and so they shall receive.

My good friend asked me to help him extract his daughter from an abusive marriage. Her husband was a member of the Aryans and was violent. I didn't approve of getting between a married couple, but after talking to the daughter did it anyway. Yes, I knew full well that I was doing a wrong thing. We went to the east side tattoo joint where they both worked and after blocking while the girl ran away with her mom, The dad then confronted the husband to explain what had just happened. The well over 6 foot 325 pound aryian flew into a rage and started waiving the largest pistol I ever saw while his 2 "brothers" looked on. When the huge pistols came out I intervened. I gave him the dad voice and he stopped to look. I explained that it was exactly this behavior that lost him his wife in the first place. He raged "Why would you do this to me?" I answered that I did it because my road dog asked me to. I said that I knew what I had done was wrong, and I did it for the love of my friend and his daughter. At this point he was just stunned. I suggested that the girls father leave and I locked the door behind him as he left. I told the guy that this wasn't going to go well at all if he didn't settle down. There was only one action that could make this come out well, and that was to do nothing. If he did this, It would be the first responsible thing that he had ever done in his life and his wife would see that. Any other action would not end up well no matter how it turned out, and it could possibly not go his way. His wife would see that also. Long story short, we talked for 45 minutes. He was a frightened child in a huge tattooed klansman's body. I counseled him like the father he never knew should have. I told him what he had to do to win back his wife. I gave him a phone number so we could talk more about it. When I opened the door, my buddy was there frantic with 4 policemen. They were sure that I was Killed. I told the cops there was no problem, just rapping with my buddies. 3 Aryans agreed and everybody went home. I never drew or fired my .357 magnum that was in my front pocket the whole time. It wasn't necessary. Three weeks later the same tattoo parlor was raided and everybody arrested for manufacture and sale of crystal meth.....

Now many of you will wail and cry that this is all a lie. It will be the sad sound of small little people who never stick their neck out in any meaningful way. I grew up in the streets of the east side in the 60"s and 70's. I remember the Grimm Reapers and the Barons. I remember the shootout on Ritter street between the Outlaws and another group whose name escapes me at this moment. I have been carrying a gun since I was 14 years old and I have learned in all that time that you don't just start shooting! More often than not, you don't really know what the facts are. Now THAT was a rant.... If we are all enemies now I will move on to TheFiringline.com. If we can all have our own opinions and discuss without calling names (arrogant, among others) then I would just as well hang around in a superior forum like this one.

Good story! The personality issue fits well with what I observed while working for the DOC. I will grant you that taking the direct approach under those circumstances was a ballsy thing to do. I must also address the issue that it was at least in a broad sense a pre-planned action and that you entered the situation wide awake knowing exactly what you were dealing with. That is a long way from being woke up to WTF.

 

[JetGirl]

Now many of you will wail and cry that this is all a lie.

If it is true, it's still a FAR cry different than being jolted awake by an intruder refusing to comply with your shouted instructions.

 

[LPMan59]

drunk college girl wanders into my house? dear diary, jackpot!

 

[bingley]

Those who followed the other thread on the same incident can guess that I am inclined to agree with Mr. Shoot your eyes out. It occurs to me that perhaps I can take a bit more time to explain my position.

As you gain a higher and higher level of skill in defense, you can assume more risk. The beginner's flowchart is something like: woken up by dark shape moving into your bedroom = shoot until shape stops. But let's say you're more advanced, you have better skills, and you have had experiences with people who intended you harm. You can tell very quickly whether the shape has intent to harm, or whether the shape presents some other form of problem. A drunk, confused person will be different from an attacker. Your flowchart is more complex, and it makes room for the gray areas. Maybe you didn't get enough red flags, and you decide to keep evaluating the situation while training the gun on the dark shape. In all likelihood, you woke up before the intruder even got in your bedroom, because there's a part of you on permanent alert. (You probably have had experiences of waking up in the middle of the night, with an urge to check outside the window, only to find suspicious characters quietly lurking out there. You don't know how it happened -- they weren't making noise -- but you were grateful that it happened.) You can protect yourself as well as others, including suspected adversaries, by taking more risks. In other words, you can afford to be magnanimous and humane. This is character growth through combatives.

I don't advocate that everyone immediately goes out to a bad neighborhood and practice magnanimity. The vast majority of people shouldn't. If you should, you know who you are, and you understand the risks you take, and you understand and accept that you may die for it. Most of the time, though, you hope you can find a better solution to conflicts with less violence. Mr. Shoot your eyes out did exactly just that in his life.

But it's important to be practical here, even with the little stuff. All this drama could have been avoided if the homeowners had practiced a little common sense and locked their doors. I know that area. People often leave their doors unlocked, but it's not very far from less desirable neighborhoods. It's very dark at night. Easy to get lost in even if you're not drunk.

 

[jeremy]

drunk college girl wanders into my house? dear diary, jackpot!

I take it your still single...

 

[JetGirl]

As you gain a higher and higher level of skill in defense, you can assume more risk.

Poppycock.

 

[Ted]

Sadly Dave, given the history of this thread with people posting the same things, I believe that your arguments are destined to be lost upon him.

Though I'm hoping that I'm wrong.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Poppycock.

If that was poppycock, he still writes beautifully. Now I am not arrogant but magnanimous. Bravo sir bingly! Author! author!

 

[Ted]

Poppycock.

The entire point of self defense is to continue to minimize risk. Hence, more skill should continue to reduce risk.

Training is a tool to providing more understanding for people to better assess and continue to assess their situation, and evolve in employing better tactics to that end.

 

[Ted]

If that was poppycock, he still writes beautifully. Now I am not arrogant but magnanimous. Bravo sir bingly! Author! author!

Well it certainly isn't humility.

 

[Effingham]

drunk college girl wanders into my house? dear diary, jackpot!

"Dear diary," hell.

"Dear Penthouse, I never thought this would happen to me, but..."