Drug testing

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  • DoggyDaddy

    Grandmaster
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    Rating - 100%
    73   0   1
    Aug 18, 2011
    111,826
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    Southside Indy
    Alcohol is a drug? :runaway:

    I thought you were arguing for free love for all, now you want to restrict prescribing more? I'm an ER doc, I don't prescribe long-term narcotics or benzos to anyone. I will do a few refills on BP meds or psych meds if they don't have insurance to bridge them a bit to find another prescriber.

    Here's how I handle things...

    Patient: 39 year-old in the ER with chronic back pain, helped a friend move a couch five days before and flared up his back pain. Has a family doctor, has not called them about the increased level of pain and comes to see me at 6pm (after PCPs office closes for the day). I ask about prescribing history of drugs, recent doctor and hospital visits, the nature of the back pain,why didn't you call your family doctor, etc... I search to see if you've been to other ERs in the city recently. I look at your narcotic history on the state's website. If the data I discover is inconsistent with the history you provided, I inform you of that and question why you are lying to me and you get nothing. I then follow the visit up with a letter to the PCP informing them of the deceit attempting to obtain narcotics from me (which is a felony BTW). If your provided history matches your statement and you do not have a history of chronic narcotics, I offer a day or two of pain control and recommend exercises, stretches, PT, etc as better treatment options. If your history matches but you DO have a history of chronic narcotics, then I need to determine if you should have pills available or not. If you should, I reassure you that you have no serious, emergent condition and you can simply increase the dosing frequency of your existing pill supply. If you tell me that you are out of your pills early because the pain got too bad, I tell you that is a budgeting issue and you should have notified your prescriber of the increased usage. You had a week to tell you were running low and now have been out a week. I do not prescribe meds for chronic pain, which this is. If you are out of pills but on a chronic regimen from a prescriber and just haven't had a refill yet, I inform you that unfortunately you have a chronic pain condition and that is not treated in the emergency department. you need to call your PCP in the morning to obtain a refill. I'll give you a pill in the ED or maybe two to go home with too to tide you over until your doctor's office opens.

    If you want pills from me you are going to be nice to me and my staff. If you swear at the nurses and complain the whole time about how long it took to be seen, you can follow-up in the morning and take some Motrin.

    All of that takes an extraordinary amount of time to do the research and document everything. I can't stand it. Then there's a good chance you'll get pissed at the lack of meds, yell at me, curse me, sometimes take a threatening posture, call my hospital administrator, threaten to call the department of health (i have no idea what that would accomplish) and call my boss (self-employed).

    There you go. How to save money and have appropriate expectations from your ER visit if I'm working.

    And ^^^This^^^ sounds completely reasonable to me. It's the "dragnet" approach that I have a problem with. Again, that's not directed at you or the medical profession in general. It's directed at people (legislators) that make laws that make them feel like they've done something, efficacy of that something be damned.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

    Super Moderator
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    1   0   0
    Mar 22, 2011
    52,057
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    Mitchell
    This is the problem. I DO govern myself. This is identical to gun control laws. I shouldn't be governed in the possession and carry of firearms because others use them criminally, but it's acceptable to force me to jump through ridiculous hoops and prove my innocence because others make different decisions? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

    And I thought we had already established as fact that the laws, no matter how righteous, don't actually prevent behavior. They simply codify a penalty that can be meted out under the guise of due process.

    I'm not arguing for the status quo, I'm reconciling the theoretical with the real world. In an ideal world, where none of my actions have any effect on anybody else, I should be able to do what ever I want. And I'm all for it, except we don't live in such a place. We live in a world where many of the things we do "because it's my right" or ought to be my right if it weren't for all those statist nannies, infringe on other people. If I mis-use prescription drugs and my doctor enables me, my wife, mother, father, etc. are hurt. My failure and the doctor's failure to act responsibly has had direct effect on their lives. To your point, the law will not keep all addicts from feeding their addictions; like water, some will find the next least resistive path to their goal. The big difference between this in gun laws in that there is language in the Constitution that says keeping and bearing arms shall not be infringed. There is nothing like that that protects access to medications.

    I'm all for fewer laws. I'm not sure this will be all that successful and I resent the fact, God forbid I develop a need for these things, I'll be encumbered by it as well. But to me, anyway, it's common sense, it's just the way "it" is, if you don't want to be governed, govern yourself.
     

    forgop

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    Dec 29, 2012
    1,304
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    Southeast Indy
    I love when people try to tell doctors how to do their job, especially when you have never worked in the medical field or even stayed at a Holiday Inn for that matter. Same thing applies to all the cop know it alls to the lay people.
     

    Trooper

    Shooter
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    I love when people try to tell doctors how to do their job, especially when you have never worked in the medical field or even stayed at a Holiday Inn for that matter. Same thing applies to all the cop know it alls to the lay people.

    But it is my body. I will NOT allow a doctor to push me around. Nor any other professional (teacher, CPA, lawyer). I hire them for their expertise, not for them to treat me as if I were a serf.
     

    forgop

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    Dec 29, 2012
    1,304
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    Southeast Indy
    But it is my body. I will NOT allow a doctor to push me around. Nor any other professional (teacher, CPA, lawyer). I hire them for their expertise, not for them to treat me as if I were a serf.

    LOL

    Some people only "employ" those who tell them what they want to hear vs the truth. I can't imagine where you fall on that spectrum. ;)
     

    Trooper

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Can you give an example of a doctor pushing you around?

    I have a lot of female friends who complain that the doctors never listen to them. My mother was in medicine for over 50 years. She taught us how to talk with docs, to stand up to get treated. Some of the older docs were very heavy handed.

    We see similar heavy handed treatment of students and parents by teachers in schools in low income areas.
     

    Trooper

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    LOL

    Some people only "employ" those who tell them what they want to hear vs the truth. I can't imagine where you fall on that spectrum. ;)

    Well, I had a female doctor who said I ok for my age and should just accept it. I got rid of her and found a doc who could push to me to be the best I could be.
    Would you allow an accountant to lose your money? Or a lawyer to set you up for defeat? I do not accept second best. It is my money, my body.

    So if your doctor tells you that you are old and worthless then do you let him euthanize you because he is the expert?
     

    hoosierdoc

    Freed prisoner
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    8   0   0
    Apr 27, 2011
    25,987
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    Galt's Gulch
    Well, I had a female doctor who said I ok for my age and should just accept it. I got rid of her and found a doc who could push to me to be the best I could be.
    Would you allow an accountant to lose your money? Or a lawyer to set you up for defeat? I do not accept second best. It is my money, my body.

    So if your doctor tells you that you are old and worthless then do you let him euthanize you because he is the expert?

    Why did you see this doctor? Impossible to judge her response without knowing the reason for the visit.

    Listening to patients is certainly important. Cutting them off when they ramble about pointless stuff is important too. Problem is knowing how to get them to stop talking without them feeling cutoff.
     

    Trooper

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    Why did you see this doctor? Impossible to judge her response without knowing the reason for the visit.

    Listening to patients is certainly important. Cutting them off when they ramble about pointless stuff is important too. Problem is knowing how to get them to stop talking without them feeling cutoff.

    She was my primary doc. I was asking about how to maximize my physical ability, especially running. She saw no value in even trying because I was "old" (over 50). That I need to give up and accept that I was going to eventually die.

    About six years later I did 14 months in Afghanistan. I expect my docs to help me to be my best. When you stop trying, you start dying.
     

    hoosierdoc

    Freed prisoner
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Apr 27, 2011
    25,987
    149
    Galt's Gulch
    She was my primary doc. I was asking about how to maximize my physical ability, especially running. She saw no value in even trying because I was "old" (over 50). That I need to give up and accept that I was going to eventually die.

    Were those her words or your interpretation of them? I wholly agree that you need to find a doc who you trust and you feel is listening to what's important to you. Too many people don't push for anything and as a result they get very little.
     

    forgop

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 29, 2012
    1,304
    38
    Southeast Indy
    She was my primary doc. I was asking about how to maximize my physical ability, especially running. She saw no value in even trying because I was "old" (over 50). That I need to give up and accept that I was going to eventually die.

    About six years later I did 14 months in Afghanistan. I expect my docs to help me to be my best. When you stop trying, you start dying.
    No hospice referral?

    Some people get "fired" because they want to. Me thinks she got what she desired.
     

    Trooper

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    Were those her words or your interpretation of them? I wholly agree that you need to find a doc who you trust and you feel is listening to what's important to you. Too many people don't push for anything and as a result they get very little.

    My current docs like that I am engaged in my health. Having been a competitive athlete, I am body conscious. I know when I am in peak performance. I really believe that most of you do not understand what means to be your best. Or refusing to accept 2nd best. From the whining here, too many seem to let life run over them. Constantly in fear.

    My docs (I have several as I am dealing with problems stemming from Afghanistan) love that I am pushing myself. They wish more of their patients were this engaged and motivated.
     

    schafe

    Master
    Rating - 66.7%
    2   1   0
    Oct 15, 2009
    1,785
    38
    Monroe Co.
    ............... I know when I am in peak performance. I really believe that most of you do not understand what means to be your best. Or refusing to accept 2nd best......
    Wow!, just wow. You are saying this on a gun forum with folks, many of whom shoot and train intensly to be precisely that?.....or maybe I misunderstand.:dunno:
     

    forgop

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 29, 2012
    1,304
    38
    Southeast Indy
    Wow!, just wow. You are saying this on a gun forum with folks, many of whom shoot and train intensly to be precisely that?.....or maybe I misunderstand.:dunno:

    I only wish I could be half as great as shape as trooper. After all, when it comes to "peak performance", I'd enlist the help of a good trainer or instructor, not talking to my PCP about how to attain such "peak performance" by running.
     

    hornadylnl

    Shooter
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    1   0   0
    Nov 19, 2008
    21,505
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    I started having lower back pain in the army. After I got out, I went for a VA physical and the dock to me (IIRC) I had sacroileac dysfunction or something like that. Over the last 15 years, I'd get it in my lower left or right back and it'd hurt like hell for a week or so and get better. It's been going on a couple months in my lower right back now. Went to the chiropractor twice now and that hasn't helped at all. I just bought an inversion table and we'll see if that helps.

    I've never so much as taken a tylenol for back pain and there have been many mornings here lately where I can barely get to my right foot to put a sock on it. I'm not going to a doctor for it because I DON'T WANT pills. Pills won't fix it. The pain is the worst when I go from standing to sitting or vs versa. I'll live with the pain before I turn into a pill head.
     

    forgop

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 29, 2012
    1,304
    38
    Southeast Indy
    I started having lower back pain in the army. After I got out, I went for a VA physical and the dock to me (IIRC) I had sacroileac dysfunction or something like that. Over the last 15 years, I'd get it in my lower left or right back and it'd hurt like hell for a week or so and get better. It's been going on a couple months in my lower right back now. Went to the chiropractor twice now and that hasn't helped at all. I just bought an inversion table and we'll see if that helps.

    I've never so much as taken a tylenol for back pain and there have been many mornings here lately where I can barely get to my right foot to put a sock on it. I'm not going to a doctor for it because I DON'T WANT pills. Pills won't fix it. The pain is the worst when I go from standing to sitting or vs versa. I'll live with the pain before I turn into a pill head.

    That's definitely not achieving peak performance.
     

    Trooper

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Wow!, just wow. You are saying this on a gun forum with folks, many of whom shoot and train intensly to be precisely that?.....or maybe I misunderstand.:dunno:

    My experience is that few gun owners are into the competition aspects of shooting. Just as there are few CLass III owners.

    I would doubt that most here put even four hours in a week shooting. And even fewer shoot daily. Sorry
     
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