Downtown Indy Riots/damage overnight...

[BigRed]

https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog/confederate-memorials-speaking-to-posterity/

Confederate Memorials Speaking to Posterity

 

[2A_Tom]

Wow, my little post caused all of you to jump on TL.

All of the SJW tear down history needs to be nipped in the bud.

 

[T.Lex]

https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog/confederate-memorials-speaking-to-posterity/

Confederate Memorials Speaking to Posterity

I think South's dedication of (and to) memorials rings differently to my ears. To mix metaphors, I see them as mostly a middle finger to the North. Their words provide thin veneer for their policies that necessitated the War.

I do not doubt the heroism, bravery, and loyalty of their soldiers. Some of my ancestors are counted among them (although more for the Union, if we're keeping track). But to memorialize those qualities within that army immediately calls to mind what they were fighting for. That should figure prominently in any memorial to them, but as that site points out, no one even talked about it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Are you actually saying that the entirety of the Confederacy is equivalent to the entirety of the US during WWII?

If there are any monuments to the officials who put Japanese into camps, I would wholly advocate for those to be taken down. That's not something we should glorify.

If there are monuments to the Americans who suffered through those camps, I am wholly supportive of those.

We should not forget these embarrassing incidents in our history (or any of the many others), but neither should we glorify those responsible for the embarrassment.

My understanding is that the Confederate memorial in Garfield Park is intended to honor the subjects to the Confederacy who didn't really have much choice in the matter. I think that's fine, if that's what it is.

For that matter, I think there's a monument (or at least a plaque) that was purchased by Confederate soldiers to honor the general who ran the POW camp. (Morton?) That's a bit tricky, right?

I think the difference might just be that the Japanese don't have an entire political party that's been telling them they're victims since it occurred. And I think the Japanese decided that success and prosperity was the best revenge, rather than wallowing in the past.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Well, here ya go... the man who signed the order himself. https://www.nps.gov/frde/index.htm

Erasing history is a very slippery slope.

Yep, clearly that needs to go.

 

[BigRed]

I think South's dedication of (and to) memorials rings differently to my ears. To mix metaphors, I see them as mostly a middle finger to the North. Their words provide thin veneer for their policies that necessitated the War.

I do not doubt the heroism, bravery, and loyalty of their soldiers. Some of my ancestors are counted among them (although more for the Union, if we're keeping track). But to memorialize those qualities within that army immediately calls to mind what they were fighting for. That should figure prominently in any memorial to them, but as that site points out, no one even talked about it.

What were they fighting for?

Oh yeah... "they just went to war to keep slavery and the union went to war to free slaves".... yet more "revamped history".

 

[T.Lex]

History is complicated.

At the end of the day, we can individually determine what has merit and what doesn't and express that to the elected leaders. Then its up to them to decide how to handle this kind of thing.

Downtown Indy is practically littered with plaques that describe something of historical value that doesn't exist anymore. That's just the way things go.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

At least he was conflicted on the internment, but was ultimately complicit.

Human experience is a mixed bag. Clearly, he did some "right" things along with the awful. I'm totally in favor of representing both.

Another point - each generation gets to decide what is important and what to remember. Those of us who can be counted with Cold War Warriors will probably be shunned at some point in the future for being wrong about socialism. So be it.

Times change. If the newer generations don't want to see confederate flags or monuments, or remember why they are important or nuanced... so be it.

This is where I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Wishing away history doesn't make it not have happened. Something, something... doomed to repeat it.

 

[T.Lex]

What were they fighting for?

Oh yeah... "they just went to war to keep slavery and the union went to war to free slaves".... yet more "revamped history".

I can't remember when INGO covered the Civil War, but I think it was before 2017.

It isn't nearly as simple as what you suggest and I don't think anyone on here would say that it is that simple.

Generally, though, the Confederacy was formed to protect the individual states' rights to determine their own laws, including those related to slavery. The right to keep slaves was inextricably wound through their cause.

 

[Alpo]

No more war memorials of any type. I mean, somebody suffered in that war, right? We shouldn’t glorify anybody who used violent actions to push their societal beliefs upon another.

From now on, only celebrity monuments!

Mt Rushmore should be changed: Kim Kardashian, Ellen DeGeneres, Oprah and Miley Cyrus.

 

[T.Lex]

This is where I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Wishing away history doesn't make it not have happened. Something, something... doomed to repeat it.

Mine was an observation, not an endorsement.

And yes, because each generation gets to decide, things tend to become familiar for those who either live long enough or read enough history.

My own wish is that more people would become more familiar with history rather than ignoring it.

 

[two70]

I think the difference might just be that the Japanese don't have an entire political party that's been telling them they're victims since it occurred. And I think the Japanese decided that success and prosperity was the best revenge, rather than wallowing in the past.

Well said but unfortunately I can't rep you for it:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DoggyDaddy again.

 

[MCgrease08]

When do the calls to remove statues of G. Washington start to get some attention?

Oh wait... they already are.

You know, I guess we really should tear down all the memorials to WWII. I mean we treated our own American citizens of Japanese descent pretty crappy. Best to stop memorializing that little dark stain on our history too, eh? Why are we glorifying sending our own citizens to internment camps?

Yep, better raze the Jefferson Memorial too, you know, since he was a slave owner.

Now you're catching on.

The thought amoung the anti-American identity politics crowd is that the US can never be admired or revered until all the sins of the past are erased. That is their ultimate goal. It's not enough that we're improved over time. To them the sin of slavery will always be a stain even though it's been eliminated. They don't think America can be redeemed by getting better, only through complete destruction.

It's why "Make America Great Again" was so triggering to them. It's why we hear people say "America was never great." These types will continue to try and dismantle the founding tenants of this country piece by piece until they are completely erased.

 

[BigRed]

These types will continue to try and dismantle the founding tenants of this country piece by piece until they are completely erased.

Absolutely correct..... When you cut to the chase, their objective is centralization, socialism, and communism. Whether they recognize that may be another matter.

 

[cbhausen]

Mt Rushmore should be changed: Kim Kardashian, Ellen DeGeneres, Oprah and Miley Cyrus.

How about AJ Foyt, Dan Gurney, Parnelli Jones and Mario Andretti instead? I’ve got a T-shirt like that, anyway.

 

[2A_Tom]

Mine was an observation, not an endorsement.

And yes, because each generation gets to decide, things tend to become familiar for those who either live long enough or read enough history.

My own wish is that more people would become more familiar with history rather than ignoring it.

My point is that by denying that particular history, a concerted effort by the government indoctrination complex, is one reason we are in the mess we are in today.

All I ever learned in school was that northern carpetbaggers are the reason that the South never recovered.

The wishes of President Lincoln and President Grant for reconstruction were nothing but window dressing. The KKK black laws weren`t even mentioned.

Today many people believe that Democrats have always been the party of the oppressed slaves. They believe that the Civil Rights Amendment was the work of LBJ and the Democrats.

The problem is that we need to teach history not erase it.

 

[Alpo]

How about AJ Foyt, Dan Gurney, Parnelli Jones and Mario Andretti instead? I’ve got a T-shirt like that, anyway.

Not social justice warrior enough.

Now, if we found out AJ was gay......then mebbe.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

So $100,000 will be spent to remove a monument to men who died seeking independence for their country.

Not even the dead are safe from progressives. What's next? Digging up their remains at Crown Hill?

 

[Alpo]

American Taliban. Tyrannical Anarchists.

 

[foszoe]

Mt Rushmore should be changed: Kim Kardashian, Ellen DeGeneres, Oprah and Miley Cyrus.

Butts or faces? Butts I could get behind!