Do you need a LCHG(?) to OWN a handgun?

[Lebowski]

Do you need a LTCH to OWN a handgun?

Hey everyone,

Sorry for such a broad question, but I was window shopping the for-sale forums earlier and noticed that on pretty much every pistol listing the owner required the buyer to present a LTCH and IN drivers license.

Am I the only one here who doesn't have a carry permit? I'd like to get it soon, but I've only got full sized pistols and think it'd be nice to have a small carry pistol to train with while I wait patiently and for a very long time for the state to issue such a permit.

This got me wondering: Do you NEED a permit to own a handgun? I'm 25, no criminal record (pulled over once for a headlight out and a parking ticket, once). I'm going to the range tomorrow, and since I don't have a permit to carry, whats the 'legal way' of me transporting my firearm from my house, to a car, to the range and back?

Thanks for hitting me with some knowledge.

EDIT: And I know I can't post/buy/sell anything in those forums so don't need to point it out. I can't afford anything I want right now anyhow. Just window shopping and wishing.

 

[atalon]

NO

the LTCH is to allow you to carry it outside of the house loaded (concealed or open carried in Indiana). Otherwise you can only be transporting it to and from a range or other shooting location with the ammo in a separate container.

The reason for asking for the License is to be reasonably sure that the person you are selling the gun to is actually allowed to own one since they took the time and had the ability to get a LTCH. It is more of a peace of mind/CYA in case any questions arise in the future.

 

[Sylvain]

No LTCH needed to buy or own a gun.
In some cases you can transport a gun without a licence.

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.
(b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person may carry a handgun without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun if:
(1) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person;
(2) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body while lawfully present in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the person:
(A) has the consent of the owner, renter, lessor, or person who legally controls the property to have the handgun on the premises;
(B) is attending a firearms related event on the property, including a gun show, firearms expo, gun owner's club or convention, hunting club, shooting club, or training course; or
(C) is on the property to receive firearms related services, including the repair, maintenance, or modification of a firearm;
(3) the person carries the handgun in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person, if the handgun is:
(A) unloaded;
(B) not readily accessible; and
(C) secured in a case;
(4) the person carries the handgun while lawfully present in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the handgun is:
(A) unloaded;
(B) not readily accessible; and
(C) secured in a case; or
(5) the person carries the handgun:
(A) at a shooting range (as defined in IC 14-22-31.5-3);
(B) while attending a firearms instructional course; or
(C) while engaged in a legal hunting activity.
(c) Unless the person's right to possess a firearm has been restored under IC 35-47-4-7, a person who has been convicted of domestic battery under IC 35-42-2-1.3 may not possess or carry a handgun.
(d) This section may be not construed:
(1) to prohibit a person who owns, leases, rents, or otherwise legally controls private property from regulating or prohibiting the possession of firearms on the private property;
(2) to allow a person to adopt or enforce an ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that:
(A) prohibits; or
(B) has the effect of prohibiting;
an employee of the person from possessing a firearm or ammunition that is locked in the trunk of the employee's vehicle, kept in the glove compartment of the employee's locked vehicle, or stored out of plain sight in the employee's locked vehicle, unless the person's adoption or enforcement of the ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule is allowed under IC 34-28-7-2(b); or
(3) to allow a person to adopt or enforce a law, statute, ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that allows a person to possess or transport a firearm or ammunition if the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting the firearm or ammunition by state or federal law.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.326-1987, SEC.1; P.L.195-2003, SEC.6; P.L.98-2004, SEC.155; P.L.118-2007, SEC.35; P.L.164-2011, SEC.1; P.L.6-2012, SEC.231.

No licence needed to carry and transport long guns.

 

[HoughMade]

People ask for it in a sale for their own peace of mind. They don't want to be accused (someday) of selling to someone who cannot legally own, and the LTCH requirement in their sales is a way to decrease the chances that the person they are selling to cannot legally own a handgun.

 

[historian]

NO

Many people like to see it, as you have to have a background check to get it, therefore are not a criminal. Gun stores will take your money gladly without it.

 

[Lebowski]

I see.

Why aren't members encouraged to use this site to look up Indiana public records to determine if someone is eligible for a owning a pistol: https://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

That way you can at least look up their criminal record.

I'll admit, the pistols I own were either given to me as a gift or I purchased from a Facebook group for Southern Indiana Gun Owners/Traders. No FFL, wasn't asked for my ID, I looked the other guy up before agreeing to the deal. It was a, "Hey how's it going? So this is the pistol, huh? Dang, looks nice. Feels good. $550? Alright man, I'll take it. Here please count this out again. All there? Good. Well, nice doing business with you man. Have a good day!" type of deal. So my knowledge of the laws in this area is pretty slim since I've not purchased one from a shop yet or from someone else requiring more info.

 

[Sylvain]

I see.

Why aren't members encouraged to use this site to look up Indiana public records to determine if someone is eligible for a owning a pistol: https://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

That way you can at least look up their criminal record.

I'll admit, the pistols I own were either given to me as a gift or I purchased from a Facebook group for Southern Indiana Gun Owners/Traders. No FFL, wasn't asked for my ID, I looked the other guy up before agreeing to the deal. It was a, "Hey how's it going? So this is the pistol, huh? Dang, looks nice. Feels good. $550? Alright man, I'll take it. Here please count this out again. All there? Good. Well, nice doing business with you man. Have a good day!" type of deal. So my knowledge of the laws in this area is pretty slim since I've not purchased one from a shop yet or from someone else requiring more info.

Well a seller can ask for anything he wants really.
If I want to sell a handgun I can ask to see your LTCH, library card, dental record and a note from your mom who say's your not a total idiot.
Of course you can buy it from someone who wont ask all that.

 

[Lebowski]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I was under the impression that was the case, but wanted to be 100% sure.

So I guess to travel with my pistol legally, to a range within the state, I just need to unload the magazines, return the rounds to the packaging and drive with the ammo seperate from the pistol? Does this mean it has to be in a seperate bag? (I just toss it all in my bookbag when going to the range)

 

[atalon]

I see.

Why aren't members encouraged to use this site to look up Indiana public records to determine if someone is eligible for a owning a pistol: https://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

That way you can at least look up their criminal record.

I'll admit, the pistols I own were either given to me as a gift or I purchased from a Facebook group for Southern Indiana Gun Owners/Traders. No FFL, wasn't asked for my ID, I looked the other guy up before agreeing to the deal. It was a, "Hey how's it going? So this is the pistol, huh? Dang, looks nice. Feels good. $550? Alright man, I'll take it. Here please count this out again. All there? Good. Well, nice doing business with you man. Have a good day!" type of deal. So my knowledge of the laws in this area is pretty slim since I've not purchased one from a shop yet or from someone else requiring more info.

You could ask the seller if he was willing to accept that in loo of a LTCH, but it is still up to the seller to agree or not.

Edit: Also criminal record alone is not the only determining factor of gun ownership.

 

[Sylvain]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I was under the impression that was the case, but wanted to be 100% sure.

So I guess to travel with my pistol legally, to a range within the state, I just need to unload the magazines, return the rounds to the packaging and drive with the ammo seperate from the pistol? Does this mean it has to be in a seperate bag? (I just toss it all in my bookbag when going to the range)

Nothing says ammo has to be separete from the gun.Just unloaded so not in the gun.

 

[atalon]

Nothing says ammo has to be separete from the gun.Just unloaded so not in the gun.

^^ This

I miss typed, I used to go a little further just to make sure there was no question until I got my LTCH.

 

[HoughMade]

I see.

Why aren't members encouraged to use this site to look up Indiana public records to determine if someone is eligible for a owning a pistol: https://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

That way you can at least look up their criminal record....

Not in all counties and not in the federal system.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Why aren't members encouraged to use this site to look up Indiana public records to determine if someone is eligible for a owning a pistol: https://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

Because not all 92 Indiana counties, 49 other states, the District of Columbia PR and the feds, etc. are in that system you cite. Oh, yeah, and that link does list old stuff.

The Clerk of the Supreme Court is not a Triple I.

 

[LarryC]

I have always felt those who require a buyer show a LTCH are misinformed or scared of their shadow. I feel the right to be armed is what it says - it certainly should not be denied due to firearm enthusiasts being scared of doing something that will haunt them! The ATF laws are very clear, you MAY sell to anyone that is a resident of your state, and in the case of handguns be a minimum of 18 years of age. Both of these issues are covered by looking at a person's Indiana drivers license.

The only other requirement is that the seller "must not know or have reasonable cause to believe that the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm". THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT OR EVEN SUGGESTION IN THE LAW THAT YOU MUST VERIFY ANYTHING ELSE!

I know of several persons who possess firearms, including handguns who do not have Licenses to carry - the weapons are for home defense. (These include my elder sisters - in their 80's). I see no logical reason to do any more "checking" of a person purchasing a firearm than looking at their DL's, obviously I would not ever sell to an intoxicated person or one who talked like they were mentally disturbed, other than that, I have no restrictions.

Per the law, it certainly doesn't look to me like you can have any responsibility than what is listed above - nor could you be held liable in any respect for anything involving the sale of the firearm.

 

[MikeDVB]

I have always felt those who require a buyer show a LTCH are misinformed or scared of their shadow.

I've always felt somebody who makes such a baseless generalization about others is either misinformed or ignorant.

I feel the right to be armed is what it says - it certainly should not be denied due to firearm enthusiasts being scared of doing something that will haunt them!

As soon as the law is changed that anybody regardless of felony convictions, drug abuse, domestic convictions, or anything else can carry - then there will be no need to at least do a little diligence to ensure you're selling to a 'proper person' under the law.

It's not misinformed nor is one scared of their shadow by simply doing a minimal amount of work to help ensure they're not violating the law and putting their own right to carry at risk of further infringement.

The ATF laws are very clear, you MAY sell to anyone that is a resident of your state, and in the case of handguns be a minimum of 18 years of age. Both of these issues are covered by looking at a person's Indiana drivers license.

That is not the be all and end all to laws concerning firearms. Just because you can sell to anybody in your state according to one law does not mean that you wouldn't be violating other laws if that person was not a 'proper person' in the eyes of the law and it can be demonstrated that you either knew this or took no steps to verify it was not the case.

The only other requirement is that the seller "must not know or have reasonable cause to believe that the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm". THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT OR EVEN SUGGESTION IN THE LAW THAT YOU MUST VERIFY ANYTHING ELSE!

Sure - there's no law that says you need to verify the rental car you just got from Enterprise doesn't have a hidden compartment with some cocaine stashed in it - but that won't stop you from getting arrested and charged if you get pulled over, vehicle searched, and they find said hidden compartment. While innocent until proven guilty is the way it's supposed to work - you would pretty much be on the defensive proving that you didn't know it was there... At the end of the day I'd rather ask for a LTCH and fill out a bill of sale than risk having to defend myself in court.

I know of several persons who possess firearms, including handguns who do not have Licenses to carry - the weapons are for home defense. (These include my elder sisters - in their 80's). I see no logical reason to do any more "checking" of a person purchasing a firearm than looking at their DL's, obviously I would not ever sell to an intoxicated person or one who talked like they were mentally disturbed, other than that, I have no restrictions.

If you don't have a LTCH to show that's fine for me - just means you get to fill out the bill of sale which I will verify via your drivers license to ensure you are who you say you are.

Per the law, it certainly doesn't look to me like you can have any responsibility than what is listed above - nor could you be held liable in any respect for anything involving the sale of the firearm.

I don't know that I'd ever want to be in the situation where I must demonstrate that I didn't know and did not have a reasonable suspicion that the person I was selling to was an improper person but that's just me.

Not misinformed or afraid of my shadow, I just choose to avoid unnecessary risks when conducting transactions that are not required for my day-to-day life. I could sell said firearm - or not - so there is no reason for me not to do some additional CYA.

 

[level0]

LTCH is just a pretty pink piece of paper. There is nothing in and of the pretty pink paper that lends credibility to the bearer, and the common man has no means to validate the information on the pretty pink paper in fact indicates the bearer.

Asking to see an LTCH is just an exercise to enable the common man to convince themselves they have performed some due diligence, when in fact all they have done is look at some pretty pink paper with words on it.

 

[MikeDVB]

LTCH is just a pretty pink piece of paper. There is nothing in and of the pretty pink paper that lends credibility to the bearer, and the common man has no means to validate the information on the pretty pink paper in fact indicates the bearer.

Asking to see an LTCH is just an exercise to enable the common man to convince themselves they have performed some due diligence, when in fact all they have done is look at some pretty pink paper with words on it.

If one were to sell to an improper person and were to be arrested for it, being able to produce an image of the LTCH that was shown to you upon selling would go a long way towards proving that you did believe you were selling to a proper person. [Hint: Pull out your phone and snap a picture of it.]

Are the chances high of you having to defend yourself from such accusations? I don't know - I'd have to guess no but I am willing to bet if you asked an Anti they would claim it happens thousands of times every day.

 

[ATM]

Constitutional carry states that don't issue carry licenses/permits probably don't see as much of this nonsense from private sellers.

 

[MikeDVB]

Constitutional carry states that don't issue carry licenses/permits probably don't see as much of this nonsense from private sellers.

Even in a Constitutional Carry location, I would still want a bill of sale and to see photo ID to verify they were who they said they were.

I prefer to prevent legal problems than to respond to them no matter how remote the possibility if it's feasible.

 

[jwh20]

NO

Many people like to see it, as you have to have a background check to get it, therefore are not a criminal. Gun stores will take your money gladly without it.

Correct but a gun store is presumably an FFL holder and so has access to the NICS system and can perform the background check. A private individual who is not an FFL holder has no access to this (stupid in my view) and so will ask to see an LTCH on the thinking that they probably not have one if they were ineligible to purchase the gun. Of course that's not exactly true but it's better than nothing.

The private seller, however, is NOT REQUIRED by any law to make sure you are legally able to own the firearm you are purchasing. This is the basis for the entire "Universal Background Check" fiasco we saw in Washington in April. The so-called "loophole" that Obama kept talking about. Of course such sales are only a small percentage of the overall firearm sales, and of those, only a tiny percentage are to a buyer who is legally unfit to own that firearm, and of those only a tiny percentage end up committing a "real" crime with that firearm.

The criminals don't buy guns this way or they don't buy then at all and regardless of what Sen. Schumer says, criminals will not be stopped from getting firearms.

You could ask the seller to sell you without having a LTCH anyway. You could also use the services of an FFL to complete the transfer. Will probably cost you a bit since almost all FFLs charge a fee for this, but if the gun is a good deal, it should not be a problem to find an FFL willing to perform the background check and complete the sale.