Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[Jludo]

I've heard this argument before. But, if you combine this with something BBI said earlier, about God revealing Himself through Mohammad in a manner that acknowledges that revelation changes (I'm paraphrasing here) to facilitate the current understanding and sociopolitical landscape (e.g. these are the commandments for times of peace, and these are the commandments for times of war, etc.), why would God only reveal Himself in a manner in which He is only fully understood in one, specific language? Is God okay with not being fully understood (and therefore, not fully accepted) by those who are not literate in Arabic? Does God expect the whole world to become literate in Arabic? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the implications of either.

I think the same argument could be made for people's, past and present, who've never heard the word of god, I've heard a lot of different explanations for how God reaches them and they all include some form of they're being godly people despite having not read the bible. I'd think it would make someone just as uncomfortable, it does me, to think God only reveals himself I his true form to a select group of people with access to the bible in their language.

 

[Jludo]

BBI , I hope you don't leave because you bring a lot to INGO discussions and you'll be missed .

HOWEVER , you are one guy with one guy's opinion .

When I see a site like this Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth that tracks what SO MANY of your " brothers & sisters " are doing in the name of their religion , I have to ask if you really have an understanding of your religion .

Or , is that so many have it wrong ?

IMO , ( islam) it is a false religion born out of Sarah and Abraham's mistakes .

Instead of waiting on on God to fulfill His promise they took it upon themselves to do what they thought was right , and what a mess it has created .

When it comes to Trump's plan , I agree . Shut it down till we get it figured it .

If doing something that's in the best interests of the country makes you feel some kinda way about it , that's too bad .

You realize a bigoted anti islam website is no argument right? You can find websites that say whatever you want to hear and it does not change the fact that the vast majority of Muslims peacefully co exist and those in the minority do not define the whole religion.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Amen, after certain events this week, I'm thankful not only that I got out of bed, but that I got to kiss my wife and kids goodbye this morning.

Happy to hear that this brings you joy, where it would bring me some serious concerns. If I wake up and kiss the wife and kids, it stands in evidence that I am in the wrong house!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Happy to hear that this brings you joy, where it would bring me some serious concerns. If I wake up and kiss the wife and kids, it stands in evidence that I am in the wrong house!

 

[Jludo]

On this point, we agree wholeheartedly. How can the finite truly understand the infinite? How can that which exists in the temporal truly understand that which is eternal?

I agree with you both here, I think it fits with einsteins view of god as whatever is beyond our understanding.

"Scientific research can reduce superstition by encouraging people to think and view things in terms of cause and effect. Certain it is that a conviction, akin to religious feeling, of the rationality and intelligibility of the world lies behind all scientific work of a higher order... This firm belief, a belief bound up with a deep feeling, in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God. In common parlance this may be described as "pantheistic" (Spinoza)."

 

[T.Lex]

Happy to hear that this brings you joy, where it would bring me some serious concerns. If I wake up and kiss the wife and kids, it stands in evidence that I am in the wrong house!

haha

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to IndyDave1776 again.

Rep limiting gimbals exceeded.

 

[IndyDave1776]

You do realize a bigoted anti islam website is no argument right? You can find websites that say whatever you want to hear and it does not change the fact that the vast majority of Muslims peacefully co exist and those in the minority do not define the whole religion.

You do realize that this statement, while it may contain coincidental elements of truth, is not tenable on its own merit? Who defines bigoted? Does that mean they generate proven falsehoods, or simply say what you don't prefer to hear? You are attacking the messenger rather than the factual content or lack thereof of the message. You do also realize that you can find websites that will tell you the opposite with equal validity, don't you. If you don't believe me, then look up CAIR's website. I am sure they will tell you the grief caused by all 10 of the terrorists worldwide.

How do you establish your vast majority? My guess is that it is limited to a combination of the count of people actually taking up arms in tandem with your personal preferences. Who is materially supporting the men at arms? Who supports them philosophically while not acting? Consider this analogous to who is actually going to court to defend the 2A, who gives money to them, who represents them pro bono, who gives money to the NRA, who votes Republican thinking that is going to magically cure the problem, and who does none of the above, but cheers for them. In both cases, the collection of active participants expands pretty rapidly.

I tend to agree with the assessment that something on the order of 20% is as good an estimate as any of the people who actively support terrorism. Two things you have to consider here are that, first, this takes in more people than we have from the cradle to the grave, and second, I am inclined to believe that your attitude toward Christianity would be much worse than it already is if, as you drive past a crowded church on Sunday, that one car out of five in the parking lot is driven by someone who actively wants you dead for being a reprobate.

 

[IndyDave1776]

haha



Rep limiting gimbals exceeded.

I know. Socialism rears it ugly head, even here.

Oh well, it's the thought that counts!

 

[churchmouse]

I know. Socialism rears it ugly head, even here.

Oh well, it's the thought that counts!

I would rep you for him Dave but your head would swell up........................

 

[Jludo]

You do realize that this statement, while it may contain coincidental elements of truth, is not tenable on its own merit? Who defines bigoted? Does that mean they generate proven falsehoods, or simply say what you don't prefer to hear? You are attacking the messenger rather than the factual content or lack thereof of the message. You do also realize that you can find websites that will tell you the opposite with equal validity, don't you. If you don't believe me, then look up CAIR's website. I am sure they will tell you the grief caused by all 10 of the terrorists worldwide.

How do you establish your vast majority? My guess is that it is limited to a combination of the count of people actually taking up arms in tandem with your personal preferences. Who is materially supporting the men at arms? Who supports them philosophically while not acting? Consider this analogous to who is actually going to court to defend the 2A, who gives money to them, who represents them pro bono, who gives money to the NRA, who votes Republican thinking that is going to magically cure the problem, and who does none of the above, but cheers for them. In both cases, the collection of active participants expands pretty rapidly.

I tend to agree with the assessment that something on the order of 20% is as good an estimate as any of the people who actively support terrorism. Two things you have to consider here are that, first, this takes in more people than we have from the cradle to the grave, and second, I am inclined to believe that your attitude toward Christianity would be much worse than it already is if, as you drive past a crowded church on Sunday, that one car out of five in the parking lot is driven by someone who actively wants you dead for being a reprobate.

Do you believe driving by a mosque 1 in 5 cars is driven by someone who wants you dead? 20% is 320 million people in the world.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I would rep you for him Dave but your head would swell up........................

You're right. You would have to send me a chainsaw to use on the doorway along with that rep!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Do you believe driving by a mosque 1 in 5 cars is driven by someone who wants you dead? 20% is 320 million people in the world.

It seems like as good an estimate as any that I have heard proposed without a hardline political agenda one way or other. And yes, we are north of 300M people, and that is a hell of a lot of people, many more of whom are young and fit than considering an entire national population.

 

[indiucky]

Heh, with my shift I'm not used to going to bed until 3am or so. I think I'm just more tired of the topic and it seems silly to keep trying to convince you you're wrong when I believe you are right for you and that's all that's relevant to me in this particular arena. I just got caught up in being competitive.

I thought about PMing you this, but since I've already laid pretty much everything out, I might as well do this in public too. I'll explain the precursors to my conversion to Islam, and then I think I'll bow out for a bit.

I grew up with some neighbors that were Christians and meant it. They were happy, they were a tight family, they were moral and just people. They also read the Bible literally, that the world was really completely flooded except for Noah, etc. I was quite impressed with them. I really wanted to be like them. But I sucked at it. Oh, I could follow the rules and say the right things, but I couldn't believe the right things. The literal reading just made me rage in my own head about how illogical everything was. I *wanted* faith, but I couldn't get it. If I'd known about allegorical reading, that wouldn't have been an issue, but I was a barefoot hillbilly and didn't know anything other than the binary choice of literal reading or athiest. I chose athiest, as I simply couldn't reconcile all the logical contradictions about people living for centuries, animals on a hand built boat repopulating the Earth, etc. By the time I left for the military I was an athiest, and kind of an ass about it. I was the guy who wanted to prove athiesm, to stick the contradictions I saw in people's face and to break their faith because they were wrong.

I became a worse and worse version of myself. Not because I was an athiest, but because I was an ass, and arrogant, and young, and stupid, and convinced of my own invincibility. You know, a young soldier. I had a chip on my shoulder, I started drinking more and more and more, etc. Then I got hurt and spiraled real bad. Being a soldier was most of my identity. Then I couldn't be a good soldier any more. Even now it hurts to write that. I was mad at everyone and everything, so I decided to take it out on my liver. I was unhealthy, I married the wrong person for the wrong reasons (and she was a good person, we just weren't right for each other), I was a drunk and I was only getting worse. I alienated nearly everyone but my father and grandmother, including my wife and we were learning to hate each other.

So, one day, I had an epiphany. Sort of. I woke up looked down, realized that laying down I couldn't see my feet and a voice said "you are a fat bastard"...then I realized it was me who'd said it and that I was right. That sort of got the ball rolling for me to realize I was a fat, bitter, angry bastard wasting my life in a job I did not find fulfilling, a marriage that I either needed to drastically reshape or move on from for both of our sakes, and was wasting my life in multiple ways. I started exercising, stopped drinking, and then I was rewarded. A radio program about British soldiers becoming security contractors gave me the idea of being a quasi-soldier again, do something worth doing, and pretty much start over. And I did. I had no intention of finding a religion, I wasn't looking, I was pretty satisfied with being an athiest and wasn't really mulling religious questions in my head. Certainly not Islam, I wasn't too far off from what some folks here think today. There's probably some good ones, but most of them are blowing themselves up or throwing rocks at Jews. Then I got there and was confronted with undeniable evidence my stereotypes were way off. I made friends with guys from Yemen and Oman, I saw the faith they had (not religion...faith) and I started considering if it would work for me. I did what I normally do when I'm curious about something, read everything I can find on it, and learned about allegorical reading vs literal reading, the history, etc. and took the first steps toward conversion, eventually converting officially.

There is no doubt in my mind it made me a better person. Not instantly, of course, but by increments. I relearned to live with purpose and to not waste opportunities. I learned to accept my limitations instead of being angered by them (although I regress on this front sometimes). I tamped down my arrogance (not fully), became (slightly) less abrasive, and within my own limits attempted to be empathetic. I found a calling in the idea of seeking truth, the strong protecting the weak, and in the concept of fair administration of justice, and that kindled my interest in law enforcement, which obviously led me to my current job and the opportunity to make my community better. It led me to my new (and current) wife, to reconnect with family and friends, and to strive to be better tomorrow than I am today.

It was, in short, what I needed and when I needed it in a form I could accept. There was nothing truly NEW in this, God had reached out to me many times before in many different ways, but this was the right time and the right presentation and I was in the right place, and that was all the difference. God did that, and he did it for me, because I needed it. My faith and my religion may not work for you, and you may not accept it as right, but it was and is certainly what is right for me. If your faith and your religion fits you as well as this fits me, why would I try to change that?

A Tale of two brothers...I will not use names, the only person that may know who I am talking about is littletommy....


I went to school with two brothers, both athletes, both minorities in a sea of white....I was tighter with the one my age but friends with both....After high school both brothers began going down a different path....The older one began fooling with drugs...Not as a user, but as a means to reach the American Dream without having to work hard for it...He tried the straight path but it was too slow....He became successful at it...Paid off who he needed too and had enough friends in law enforcement to keep under the radar....Over the course of twenty years he sometimes faltered and eventually got to that third strike about five years ago and is now doing hard time....My mother spoke to his mother one day and his mom said he may never get out...

The younger brother...Got out in the world...Saw the path his older brother was heading down and decided that wasn't for him....Someone introduced him to the Nation of Islam and it changed his life...I still have a stack of newsletters he gave me straight from the press from the Nation...He began mentoring other young men...Over time he became a local celebrity due to his activism....I had the pleasure of seeing him on the stage as security for Louis Farrakhan during the Million Man March...Very stoic in his bow tie and dark glasses....His older brother went through a stage where I thought he was going to join the Nation as well.....He never said but I got the impression he was considering turning things around.....It took for about six months but then from what I heard he kind of went back to his old life....

Two paths...Two journeys.....One is living his life and one is doing life...Islam saved the younger brothers life...I know that...Now who am I to judge by what means one finds peace????

No one.....

 

[T.Lex]

(I suck at this bailing thing.)

Just a clarification, American Nation of Islam isn't really Islam-Islam. I'm not sure the differences, but that's my understanding.

With that said, I'm glad the friend found a calling.

 

[printcraft]

Did we ever find out if preaching wahhabism was good or bad or just does not really matter in the end?

 

[steveh_131]

Now who am I to judge by what means one finds peace????

It's less about 'judging' and more about the destination of that person's eternal soul.

 

[7.62]

I've heard this argument before. But, if you combine this with something BBI said earlier, about God revealing Himself through Mohammad in a manner that acknowledges that revelation changes (I'm paraphrasing here) to facilitate the current understanding and sociopolitical landscape (e.g. these are the commandments for times of peace, and these are the commandments for times of war, etc.), why would God only reveal Himself in a manner in which He is only fully understood in one, specific language? Is God okay with not being fully understood (and therefore, not fully accepted) by those who are not literate in Arabic? Does God expect the whole world to become literate in Arabic? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the implications of either.

I think that is a good question. The same question I asked myself when I was learning the religion. I finally settled at I will not understand or ever have that question fully answered. I guess it's the same as every other religion being originally told in one language and then it was left to the people of other languages to translate. I would guess that Arab Christians probably have the same question about the bible when they are reading a translated version.

Muhammad, could not read or write. He had to memorize word for word then recite to others which also did the same before it hit paper. That practice still lives on today. That, to me, also plays a part in why it remains quoted to this day in Arabic rather than other languages.

 

[7.62]

Side note it is really cool to see people recite the entire Quran front to back 100% to the word all by memory. (I wold think it equally as cool to see it done for other books as well.)

 

[indiucky]

It's less about 'judging' and more about the destination of that person's eternal soul.

Now who am I to judge by what means one finds peace on this earth??????

 

[Cpt Caveman]

What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic