Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[BehindBlueI's]

Perhaps it would help if you stopped looking at what you do as fighting and considered it teaching instead. Your students are dazed, confused and many are SCARED. A few are simply phobic and beyond reach. Patience is required. Lots of patience.

Thanks. Truly.

Patience is not my strongest virtue. Probably not even in the top 10. I've spent a long time on tamping down my temper, I guess patience is my next struggle. Maybe grudge holding. That's going to be a tough one. If grudge holding was an Olympic event, my grandmother would have been a gold medalist, so at least I come by that one honest.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You have the same sort of problem that people condemn all catholics because of what a few priests did. Many catholics (some of which are working to resettle Syrian refugees right now), priests included, do a lot of work to help the less fortunate but all we hear about is how the pope is a socialist or priests are pedophiles...because people will not spend 15 seconds on Google to find stories that show them doing good.

The Catholic church does stuff though that keeps the narrative going -- just like you muslims do.

(I didn't know you professed to be muslim until now but whatever floats your boat is fine with me).

I get that, but seriously I'm asking you. How do we reach you? The media is only going to report man bites dog stories, and conservative media is only going to tell the narrative they profit the most from, which is selling fear. You obviously understand the issue now, and can relate it to Catholics bad press. Will you take the 15 seconds to Google the other side of the story now?

I'm a big fan of the Pope, by the way. I'd obviously not Catholic, but he seems like a guy who really gets submission to God, charity, and defense of the poor and weak.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Quite obviously, the political class, in this case, Trump, is succeeding with one of their favorite tools. Find a division and exploit it. Race, religion, political party, whatever they can use. We become divided and we weaken. Our weakness strengthens them. I mean, look at us. One of the most stand up guys on this site, whose post quality is so high he should be given site supporter status, serves his community, on and on, is at serious odds with people that would otherwise enjoy his company, possibly pay him for training, and enjoy a shared hobby, cheeseburger or brew together. We don't have a Muslim problem in this country. We have an ISIS, Obama and Trump problem. (That is not to equate the three, don't misunderstand me.)

Do I lose any man card points if I admit this touched me to the point I teared up?

 

[BugI02]

BBI, you can leave...or you can stay. In America you have that freedom, it's called the freedom of association. It's deep one of those pesky government form somewhere next to the sentence about freedom of religion. I for one have not seen anything redeeming about the Muslim religion. I'm sure there is something worthwhile in it but, I don't care to look either. I'll admit that I know little to nothing of the Koran or Islam in general. I believe that it's a path for destruction for this country. So you can begin to rant on me about me being close-minded and that I do not understand and I will not give an inch in faith.

So you basically are saying you don't know anything about this discussion, don't WANT to know anything but stand by your position? Why would we care?

 

[caverjamie]

So, seriously, should I leave? It seems less and less welcoming here since religion is an allowed topic and I'm constantly told how we are. I've stuck around through the anti-cop bull****, but this is a lot harder to stay calm about as it's not just about me, but about people I love and care about.

Don't forget about all the good on here, not just the bad.

Most of what I know is from what I see on TV and read on the internet news sites. You would have to blame them for my viewpoints I guess. I think we should all be able to choose what we believe in - and I'm all for live and let live. But come on, you gotta let the other person live for that to work. For example, when I go to church, the pastor says (paraphrasing) "hey, we need to help those Syrian refugees because that's what Jesus said to do". That's the kind of stuff I hear on Sunday - conversely, what is it these other people are hearing that convince them to set people on fire, cut their heads off, etc? There has got to be some discrepancy between the message I am hearing, and the message they are hearing. That seems like the issue that needs attention.

 

[Woobie]

Do I lose any man card points if I admit this touched me to the point I teared up?

If you have as many as you do, it doesn't really matter, does it? Just put your fedora on and it's like it never happened.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I get that, but seriously I'm asking you. How do we reach you? The media is only going to report man bites dog stories, and conservative media is only going to tell the narrative they profit the most from, which is selling fear. You obviously understand the issue now, and can relate it to Catholics bad press. Will you take the 15 seconds to Google the other side of the story now?

I'm a big fan of the Pope, by the way. I'd obviously not Catholic, but he seems like a guy who really gets submission to God, charity, and defense of the poor and weak.

I'm open to competing viewpoints. I'd like to think I'll always consider differing views, combined with my principles and values, when shaping my opinions on the issues.

I think the pope is a good man. I would not want him running my country though.

 

[KG1]

Quite obviously, the political class, in this case, Trump, is succeeding with one of their favorite tools. Find a division and exploit it. Race, religion, political party, whatever they can use. We become divided and we weaken. Our weakness strengthens them. I mean, look at us. One of the most stand up guys on this site, whose post quality is so high he should be given site supporter status, serves his community, on and on, is at serious odds with people that would otherwise enjoy his company, possibly pay him for training, and enjoy a shared hobby, cheeseburger or brew together. We don't have a Muslim problem in this country. We have an ISIS, Obama and Trump problem. (That is not to equate the three, don't misunderstand me.)

It seems to me that there is strength to be found in fighting a common enemy and not each other. We all share a commonality. The Muslim faith is under siege just as well as non-Muslim and thousands of Muslims are suffering because they do not adhere to the radicalized perversion of their faith. We all need to recognize that fact and carry on the fight accordingly. Together. I'm done.

 

[IndyDave1776]

How do we reach you?

First, I am feeling a special kind of sympathy stemming from my college experience. I had a truly liberal professor (as in the classic liberal model, as opposed to being a modern leftist) who afforded me basically equal time with most everyone else by virtue of the fact I was the only outspoken conservative in the room. Even with the most fair situation I ever encountered, it was still very taxing standing alone against at least half a dozen people who just never stopped.

Getting to the question, I can't offer a comprehensive answer, but I can share a few observations...

At the top of the list, I generally stop listening when I am confronted with the narrative that the news is made by all five of the 'radicals' found worldwide followed up with a declaration that 'this isn't what Islam is like because we say so'. Although western media tends to divide Islam into Shi'ite and Sunni, I am well aware that there are at least as many subsets of Islam as there are Christian denominations. My understanding is that a couple of them are sufficiently benign that Israel has them serving in its military. A little guidance on the variations here would be a good starting point. I would also point out that your sharing your own experience does much in this regard.

After that, dealing with (as opposed to dismissing) certain passages of the Quran would do much to promote understanding. It is particularly difficult to accept the dismissals which are de rigueur when these passages seem to be acted upon with alarming frequency and to have been so acted upon throughout the history of the faith. I suspect that this is one of those points where understanding the more nuanced 'denominational' divisions could be helpful.

Hand in hand with this is the teaching and example of the founder. History generally recalls that fighting and conquest were principal elements of Mohammed's system of operating, which are difficult to reconcile with the ideas of a 'religion of peace' and that jihad is a spiritual and not a temporal concept. By contrast, we frequently hear it thrown up that assorted Christian persons and/or groups throughout history have acted similarly, but I am still left with the fact that Christ never killed anyone nor did he direct anyone to be killed.

In the end, I am neither willing to accept the narrative that the problem revolves around an insignificant handful of individuals worldwide not that every last person who bends the knee to Allah is inherently dangerous. In my case it comes down to finding the line that most closely represents the truth without accepting unnecessary risks--and I put admission of 'refugees' about whom we know absolutely nothing except what they choose to tell us about themselves at the top of the list. How do you 'thoroughly vet' people about whom no information of any type is generally available?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Don't forget about all the good on here, not just the bad.

Most of what I know is from what I see on TV and read on the internet news sites. You would have to blame them for my viewpoints I guess. I think we should all be able to choose what we believe in - and I'm all for live and let live. But come on, you gotta let the other person live for that to work. For example, when I go to church, the pastor says (paraphrasing) "hey, we need to help those Syrian refugees because that's what Jesus said to do". That's the kind of stuff I hear on Sunday - conversely, what is it these other people are hearing that convince them to set people on fire, cut their heads off, etc? There has got to be some discrepancy between the message I am hearing, and the message they are hearing. That seems like the issue that needs attention.

Well, I can address that a bit. I tried to break misunderstandings and stereotypes about Americans while I was in the Middle East as well, it's not a one way street by any means because there is a lot of fear and ignorance on both sides. Without a free press, and without literacy, it can be even tougher in poor areas of the ME. Imagine if all you knew of the outside world was told to you by your local congressman, whoever that happened to be, and he was also the guy you worked for and he had his own little militia. That's pretty much how rural Yemen is according to some of my friends from there. Once they met Americans (via the Qatari military) it didn't take them long to figure out a lot of what they "knew" was BS, but if they'd stayed in Yemen they would never have that chance.

There's a LOT of issues. Way more than I can get into in one post, and frankly I doubt I understand them all. The idea it's all "jihad" is so simplistic as to be ridiculous. My father in law, a Palestinian who immigrated to Jordan in his late teens, sums it up like this: "A man without a family, without a house, without an education, he is easy to convince to go fight by anyone who will talk to him." Note it's not just about religion, it can be about tribe, nation, family, etc. There's an Arabic saying "me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against a stranger" and that idea compounds with tribes and nations.

In real broad strokes, you have tribal warfare and territory conflicts (very similar to the Plains Indians if you read histories of both, particularly in terms of posturing in battle), you have religion as the narrative in certain conflicts, you have very real divides in terms of education, access to opportunity to better yourself, you have dictators both political and economical and not much in the way of a middle class, you have political strife as monarchies fail to keep up with the demands of the modern world, and you have a big cauldron of mess ready to bubble over. We care because oil and because proxy wars. The same sorts of struggles in central Africa or south America, we don't really pay any attention to.

Remember Rwanda? The Hutus and the Tutsis and a tribal conflict that resulted in a genocide of about 70% of the entire Tutsi population, perhaps a million people killed and pervasive use of rape as a weapon of war? What did the world do? Nothing. Why? Because WTF cares what Hutus and Tutsis do to each other when they don't have any oil under their feet, access to ports we want for our navies, etc. Just remember that when you read about the conflicts in the Middle East. We don't really care about the people there, we care about the resources and we care about the proxy wars...but narratives are important for public support.

BTW, this isn't a moral judgement. We aren't the world's police force, and we need to look after our interests. It's just a stark fact we don't interfere in places simply to make them better or because the people there are doing bad things. WTF would be so hip deep in Europe's problems over the century and ignore what goes on in South America unless it affects our "War on Drugs?"

 

[SteveM4A1]

Quite obviously, the political class, in this case, Trump, is succeeding with one of their favorite tools. Find a division and exploit it. Race, religion, political party, whatever they can use. We become divided and we weaken. Our weakness strengthens them. I mean, look at us. One of the most stand up guys on this site, whose post quality is so high he should be given site supporter status, serves his community, on and on, is at serious odds with people that would otherwise enjoy his company, possibly pay him for training, and enjoy a shared hobby, cheeseburger or brew together. We don't have a Muslim problem in this country. We have an ISIS, Obama and Trump problem. (That is not to equate the three, don't misunderstand me.)

Exactly. Too bad most can't see this.

 

[Woobie]

I have a real problem with letting the Syrian refugees in at this point. It has nothing to do with religion. There are people of a number of religions represented in that group. And it isn't even that they are Syrian. In fact, if nationality is the only criteria, then I would be more inclined to let Syrians in, based on the severity of their plight. I don't want people from that region immigrating here right now because ISIS has shown that they are effectively hiding amongst refugees immigrating to western nations. We solve that problem, and I'll take their tired, poor, huddled masses all day long.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

First, I am feeling a special kind of sympathy stemming from my college experience. I had a truly liberal professor (as in the classic liberal model, as opposed to being a modern leftist) who afforded me basically equal time with most everyone else by virtue of the fact I was the only outspoken conservative in the room. Even with the most fair situation I ever encountered, it was still very taxing standing alone against at least half a dozen people who just never stopped.

Getting to the question, I can't offer a comprehensive answer, but I can share a few observations...

At the top of the list, I generally stop listening when I am confronted with the narrative that the news is made by all five of the 'radicals' found worldwide followed up with a declaration that 'this isn't what Islam is like because we say so'. Although western media tends to divide Islam into Shi'ite and Sunni, I am well aware that there are at least as many subsets of Islam as there are Christian denominations. My understanding is that a couple of them are sufficiently benign that Israel has them serving in its military. A little guidance on the variations here would be a good starting point. I would also point out that your sharing your own experience does much in this regard.

After that, dealing with (as opposed to dismissing) certain passages of the Quran would do much to promote understanding. It is particularly difficult to accept the dismissals which are de rigueur when these passages seem to be acted upon with alarming frequency and to have been so acted upon throughout the history of the faith. I suspect that this is one of those points where understanding the more nuanced 'denominational' divisions could be helpful.

Hand in hand with this is the teaching and example of the founder. History generally recalls that fighting and conquest were principal elements of Mohammed's system of operating, which are difficult to reconcile with the ideas of a 'religion of peace' and that jihad is a spiritual and not a temporal concept. By contrast, we frequently hear it thrown up that assorted Christian persons and/or groups throughout history have acted similarly, but I am still left with the fact that Christ never killed anyone nor did he direct anyone to be killed.

In the end, I am neither willing to accept the narrative that the problem revolves around an insignificant handful of individuals worldwide not that every last person who bends the knee to Allah is inherently dangerous. In my case it comes down to finding the line that most closely represents the truth without accepting unnecessary risks--and I put admission of 'refugees' about whom we know absolutely nothing except what they choose to tell us about themselves at the top of the list. How do you 'thoroughly vet' people about whom no information of any type is generally available?

That's a big ask. You're basically expecting me to be a religious scholar, a history scholar, and then to chop up that knowledge into bite sized forum posts without being overly vague and broad as to be dismissed. I'd point out I've recommended some books to you on at least one occasion.

Mohammed did fight, and he did kill. The US fights and kills. Are we bad? Sometimes you have to fight and sometimes you have to kill in order to survive. Mohammed was merciful would he could be, and ruthless when he had to be. That was simply the reality of the times and the place he lived. With respect, if you believe Jesus was divine then he didn't have to deal with mundane issues unless he chose to do so. Mohammed was not divine. He was a prophet, but just a man. He very much had to deal with the mundane, to be a politician, to be a general, and to be pragmatic. He was not perfect, and he was also not a dictator. To keep his tribe together he had to consider mundane politics, he engaged in political marriages to gain allies, he did not rule by fiat. I think that's part of what draws me to Islam over Christianity. I can't be Jesus. I can't be divine. I can't be perfect. But, I can do the best I can with the skills I have and the situations I find myself in. I understand as a policeman I may have to kill, but I have many other ways to make the community better that have nothing to do with killing. Mohammed referred to battle as "the lesser jihad" and told his men returning from battle they were coming back to the "greater jihad". Jihad isn't war. It's struggle. Sometimes that struggle is via war, and a just war is not evil any more than a justified shooting is murder.

You were in the military. I think you understand there is no peace without the readiness to do violence should it be called for. Was Jesus a pacifist? If Mohammed had let himself be captured and killed, allowing his tribe to be killed or disintegrate, would that have been peace at any price and a good thing? Pragmatically, do you not agree that while not the preferred method of dealing with evil, sometimes killing is the only way to do so? If you carry a gun to defend yourself or others, I think that's your answer. Is that sinful?

Seriously, read the Armstrong book if you really want to understand. Mohammed took a fractured and violent society based on tribalism, where vendettas were the only form of justice, and did his best to create a unified society with a real legal system, protection for the weak and friendless, and an end to warlords. If you aren't divine, you probably aren't going to do that without shedding some blood. It also goes into the major denominations throughout history. At it's heart though, Islam only has 5 pillars. The testimony of faith, prayer, charity, fasting, and the pilgrimage.

 

[caverjamie]

Well, I can address that a bit.

Your summary sounds complicated and rather depressing overall. It sounds to me like there might not be a workable solution. But thanks for the detailed explanation and be careful or your fingers are going to wear out from all that typing...

 

[Que]

BBI, don't go anywhere. You won't convince most of those on here who have their minds made up. You are a valuable member and I would not like to see you go. I certainly don't want you to believe ignorance is acceptable because there isn't enough willing to speak up. I wonder if that works more than one way or only for certain people?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Your summary sounds complicated and rather depressing overall. It sounds to me like there might not be a workable solution. But thanks for the detailed explanation and be careful or your fingers are going to wear out from all that typing...

It's INCREDIBLY complicated. Every time I think "ok, I understand this" I learn something new, chase that down, and have to reevaluate. I'm trying to find a good history of the Mongols now.

The good news is, sometimes it works out. The Palestinians and Jordanians, for example. They fought, got sorted, and now live together pretty well. Over generations, that entire distinction may be forgotten as far as "original Jordanian" and "original Palestinian".

Who would have looked at race relations in the US in 1915 and figured we'd be where we are today in 2015? And change happens a lot faster now. I'm absolutely amazed at social media's influence, both good and bad, and the fact selfie sticks are a thing outside of Japan.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI, don't go anywhere. You won't convince most of those on here who have their minds made up. You are a valuable member and I would not like to see you go. I certainly don't want you to believe ignorance is acceptable because there isn't enough willing to speak up. I wonder if that works more than one way or only for certain people?

It's been really heartening to see so many people reach out. I certainly don't want to leave, I want to make sure I was still welcome here and evaluate that vs the energy and stress expended here.

 

[17 squirrel]

Really?

Yes, there's a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment. The founding of Israel pretty much guaranteed that would happen. Same as there's a lot of anti-Turk sentiment among Arabs, and the Greeks and Turks aren't generally buddies. Territory disputes tend to do that.

I'd be fascinated how the poll in Pakistan was conducted and of whom. Note the feelings against ISIS are pretty strong close to where they operate. They peter off the further away you get. You do realize not every conflict is of interest to everyone in the world and not everyone is following it with baited breath? Who here has strong feelings on India vs Pakistan? Who here even knew Cyprus was disputed territory between the Greeks and the Turks with a UN border for decades?

Look for what you want, and you'll find it. There's billions of people to choose from. If I were trying to radicalize people, though, this mass condemnation of a religion, Trumps statements, and the like are perfect fuel. It's fantastic for driving a wedge, for showing there really is a War on Islam, and you better fight now before they come for you.

So, out of curiosity, should I leave INGO? It's getting pretty damn tiresome to see mass condemnation, to see Quran quotes taken out of context to further an agenda, and it's pretty damn tiresome to be constantly lumped in with terrorists. Where's the "natural rights" crowd when Trump calls for a ban on an entire religion entering the country. If I married my wife under Trump's plan I just have to stay out of the country forever because you're scared of a pharmacist based on her religion? What about Americans with children born abroad? People with business interests in the US? People who've had visas for decades and never caused an issue visiting relatives here? Are you guys that scared of me and my family? The funny thing is many of the most vocal would actually be pretty in tune with Islam if they looked at what it actually is and not what perverse anti-Islam sources present it to be based on man bites dog stories. Charity. Defense of the weak by the strong. Justice with an understanding of they underlying motive for the crime, not just the crime itself.

So, seriously, should I leave? It seems less and less welcoming here since religion is an allowed topic and I'm constantly told how we are. I've stuck around through the anti-cop bull****, but this is a lot harder to stay calm about as it's not just about me, but about people I love and care about.

Well I'll tell you, personally as big of a needler as I am, if I was the big boss man here a few topics would be forbidden, religion , abortion and maybe a few others.
I tend not to get involved in the religion threads, its just a topic that what people believe or don't believe is there own business. Some here tend to constantly push there believes and like you said ' its just tiresome '
And the same with abortion, there's just two sides, and as with religion its a volatile conversation, when both side clash. If only one side is speeking, its not a problem. When the other side pokes there head in the door, someone's gonna get banned shortly. I'm learning to put certain folks on ignore and or avoid some topics altogether.
Sometimes I just read, shake my head and move on without posting.
I would hope you don't leave over a few that rub you the wrong way, I would suggest using ignore and inhance your viewing pleasure.
I will say that if you do deside to leave, I Sir will miss your posts.
Squirrel.

 

[ajeandy]

Well I'll tell you, personally as big of a needler as I am, if I was the big boss man here a few topics would be forbidden, religion , abortion and maybe a few others.
I tend not to get involved in the religion threads, its just a topic that what people believe or don't believe is there own business. Some here tend to constantly push there believes and like you said ' its just tiresome '
And the same with abortion, there's just two sides, and as with religion its a volatile conversation, when both side clash. If only one side is speeking, its not a problem. When the other side pokes there head in the door, someone's gonna get banned shortly. I'm learning to put certain folks on ignore and or avoid some topics altogether.
Sometimes I just read, shake my head and move on without posting.
I would hope you don't leave over a few that rub you the wrong way, I would suggest using ignore and inhance your viewing pleasure.
I will say that if you do deside to leave, I Sir will miss your posts.
Squirrel.

Religion should be a forbidden topic because guess what, NO ONE LISTENS OR CHANGES THEIR MINDS/VIEW!

Who would have thunk it!

<3

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I

That's a big ask. You're basically expecting me to be a religious scholar, a history scholar, and then to chop up that knowledge into bite sized forum posts without being overly vague and broad as to be dismissed. I'd point out I've recommended some books to you on at least one occasion.

Mohammed did fight, and he did kill. The US fights and kills. Are we bad? Sometimes you have to fight and sometimes you have to kill in order to survive. Mohammed was merciful would he could be, and ruthless when he had to be. That was simply the reality of the times and the place he lived. With respect, if you believe Jesus was divine then he didn't have to deal with mundane issues unless he chose to do so. Mohammed was not divine. He was a prophet, but just a man. He very much had to deal with the mundane, to be a politician, to be a general, and to be pragmatic. He was not perfect, and he was also not a dictator. To keep his tribe together he had to consider mundane politics, he engaged in political marriages to gain allies, he did not rule by fiat. I think that's part of what draws me to Islam over Christianity. I can't be Jesus. I can't be divine. I can't be perfect. But, I can do the best I can with the skills I have and the situations I find myself in. I understand as a policeman I may have to kill, but I have many other ways to make the community better that have nothing to do with killing. Mohammed referred to battle as "the lesser jihad" and told his men returning from battle they were coming back to the "greater jihad". Jihad isn't war. It's struggle. Sometimes that struggle is via war, and a just war is not evil any more than a justified shooting is murder.

You were in the military. I think you understand there is no peace without the readiness to do violence should it be called for. Was Jesus a pacifist? If Mohammed had let himself be captured and killed, allowing his tribe to be killed or disintegrate, would that have been peace at any price and a good thing? Pragmatically, do you not agree that while not the preferred method of dealing with evil, sometimes killing is the only way to do so? If you carry a gun to defend yourself or others, I think that's your answer. Is that sinful?

Seriously, read the Armstrong book if you really want to understand. Mohammed took a fractured and violent society based on tribalism, where vendettas were the only form of justice, and did his best to create a unified society with a real legal system, protection for the weak and friendless, and an end to warlords. If you aren't divine, you probably aren't going to do that without shedding some blood. It also goes into the major denominations throughout history. At it's heart though, Islam only has 5 pillars. The testimony of faith, prayer, charity, fasting, and the pilgrimage.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it takes to be a Christian. It's really the most beautiful and simplest things in the world. You aren't required to be perfect or divine or anything so impossible for us sinners. Love God with all of your heart and soul; recognize you sin and your sins -- then with a contrite heart, repent them, and seek forgiveness through the gift God gave us all when He sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. Then, love your neighbor as you love yourself. How easy is that?