DeSantis 2024?

[BugI02]

Take the retarded ABT claim, for example. That sentiment evolved from me speaking negatively about the folly of fierce loyalty and adoration for any politician. Rather than make a counterpoint, his move is to dodge it by fluffing up some teal what-about fodder so he can attack it. Why not just do the honest thing and defend the wisdom of adoring Trump with fierce undying unskeptical loyalty? Is it really so much harder to defend that than making up **** so you can what-about dodge it?

This is a false dichotomy, that the only possibility for why someone continues to prefer Trump's candidacy over the flavor of the month is mindless loyalty over, of course, the self-declared 'carefully reasoned' position that you proselytize for - and aren't you parsing the issue as a dreaded 'binary' rather than the nuanced continuum that everything you approve of seems to be?

The fact is you don't seem able to admit the possibility that Trump might indeed turn out to be the best candidate to head the republican ticket for 2024, and that your answer to the DeSantis flat spin of start looking for someone, anyone not Trump to throw your support behind, is the very definition of ABT. You embody the concept

It just seems to frost you that anyone would dare question your bona fides as the voice of reason

 

[BugI02]

Likely Trump will win the primaries and will lose the general election. In 4 years, DeSantis automatically has the scorn of the Trumpers. So he dead.

You're forgetting the part where he will have to find some way to maintain relevance for the two years between the end of his governorship and any possibility of throwing his hat in the 2028 ring. It won't be the scorn of Trumpers that burn him down, it will be his own uninspired, mediocre oratorical skills and lack of any original ideas

Result is the same though, he's done. See: Scott Walker's current political relevance

 

[Ziggidy]

Fulfill my dreams? See. This is an example of what I’m talking about. You guys have a switch, with just two positions: Love Trump/Hate Trump. So there are just two ways for you to interpret what I say. If I'm not enthusiastically supporting him with limitless adoration and loyalty, I must hate him, and want him gone.

Here’s the reality. I don’t love Trump. I don't hate Trump. Both things can be true. I have never said I want him taken out of the race. To the contrary, I’ve said he has every right to run for President. I believe the people have a right to choose who they want to represent them in the general election. When a ballot is in front of me, I'll pick the option that renders what I think is the best outcome.

In the May, if DeSantis is still in the race, and he hasn't exposed himself as being worse than Trump, I'll probably pick him, even if the polls show he can't. I'm not voting for the guy I think will win the primary. I'm voting for the guy I think is best for the job. Everyone should get that choice.

So can I make the point any clearer? A person can simultaneously not hate Trump, and not love Trump. I shouldn’t have to tell you that. It should be easily intuited as true, like any other obvious logical tautology.

LOL….sometimes it’s just fun to see you like this.

 

[BugI02]

The US and its constitution are at stake. And to your point, backing Trump isn't the only way to demonstrate that you know what time it is. But for Mike, apparently me talking about the binary thinking of the ardant, fiercely loyal, adoring Trumpers means I don't understand what's at stake.

You are wrong. You are wearing more effective blinders than you could accuse any Trumper of wearing

That you cannot conceive of any situation in which you conclude Trump might make the most sense as the 2024 republican candidate, except at the very last minute when you have no other choice, is damning evidence that you don't know what time it is. You intend to waste the entire period between mathematical certainty of a Trump candidacy and Election Day sulking and offering no support to that candidacy, other than the condescension to actually pull the lever for him and then wash your hands

Way to be in the fight

 

[billmyn]

My uneducated opinion: Trump is the only Nominee for the Republican Party.. Not because of the stolen 2020 election, but because he again in my opinion Deserves it! He has withstood all the Democrats could throw at him, most of which is now proven to have been made up B.S. meant to discredit and destroy him. He is the reason that we have seen the people behind the curtain, forcing them to expedite their agenda thus exposing their plans for not just our Country but the World. Then there is the stark contrast between our Country during his time and both Obama and Bidens Presidency’s ! Our Country thrived under Trump everything from our economy to World peace. Is he perfect? Hell no! But show me someone who is or was! Trump is a fighter and I will appreciate ad support a leader who is willing to stand in front of the enemy to protect their people and the way I see it that’s who he is, a defender of the Republic. Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, this is mine you don’t have to like it or agree with it!

 

[jamil]

You are always overselling your own objectivity while simultaneously needing to demonize the beliefs of others as somehow lacking the high standards you assign to your own beliefs. I don't buy it. If it were true, you wouldn't need to sell it so hard

First, I wouldn't say it's it's deamonizing per se. When I criticize a position you or others have, it's because I think it's problematic. I think that's the case to have such fierce loyalty to your guy, for example. It feels cult-like to me. I think it's advantageous not to have any loyalty to politicians, and I've explained this to you many times. But you still insist that I must have a guy. And you keep saying it as if I'm being hypocritical about it. So it seems to me your only game is what-aboutism.

I think I would vote for DeSantis in May if he's still in the race and hasn't pissed me off too much by then. But I feel zero loyalty to him. And maybe the problem is that this is foreign to you, first to not have a guy, and especially not to be loyal to him. So it makes me think you think that I'm claiming to have some high-brow type objectivity. I've said many times I am as biased as anyone, but I do try to work objectively within those biases.

But you're all about Trump right or wrong, which is foreign to me. If I were to relate that to what I feel about DeSantis, it would be praise him when he's right, and curse him when he's wrong. Same with Trump. Same with any politician. And that's even a biased position for me. My bias is as an individualist. What has DeSantis or Trump done for ME that I should be loyal? I am loyal to my family exclusively. You keep saying that voting for Trump as a last resort is condescending. Dude, that's a different language to me. I think politicians have to earn my vote, not that I owe it to them.

You don't consider anything more carefully than anyone else, merely differently, according to the preferences you already hold.

Okay. Looks like we're on the same page. You're the one who made up that "carefully considering" ********. Did you start saying it so many times you started to believe it? But, I will call you out when I think you're saying **** more out of fierce loyalty than because of reality. Now if you catch me making a point because I'm thinking like an individualist, I guess you got me.

I can't really explain the need to conceal the fact that you have preferences already entrenched, other than perhaps the need to make your opinions seem of special significance

Dude, I don't really have any preferences "entrenched" other than having the worldview of an individualist. And I seriously do not like pineapple on pizza. I'm not even all that tied to secularism. You make a good and convincing argument and there is a high degree of probability that I'll change my view. I've changed my view on several things over the years. Some of which were because of good arguments posters have made on INGO.

I do note that every time you are challenged to cite proof for controversial claims or opinions, you either won't or can't and attack the idea that whatever belief you profess could be in any way controversial

I don't think I make many controversial claims, per say. But I do think that this rivalry or contempt, or whatever has piqued your ire, tends to make you uber sensitive to things I say, even to fact check me on things I say casually.

 

[jamil]

You are wrong. You are wearing more effective blinders than you could accuse any Trumper of wearing

That you cannot conceive of any situation in which you conclude Trump might make the most sense as the 2024 republican candidate, except at the very last minute when you have no other choice, is damning evidence that you don't know what time it is. You intend to waste the entire period between mathematical certainty of a Trump candidacy and Election Day sulking and offering no support to that candidacy, other than the condescension to actually pull the lever for him and then wash your hands

Way to be in the fight

See, now this is where I see your bias for Trump poking through. I can conceive of a situation in which I would conclude that Trump makes the most sense. And I've already told you what that is several times. In May, if DeSantis is either not in the race, or has pissed me off too many times, at that point Trump would be the best choice available. And you keep calling that condescension.

You like to drone on about that last moment change. Well, again, I think it's foreign to you that someone wouldn't automatically see Trump as the bestest of all ever in perpetuity. So that if there is anyone else in the race, how dare I think that person might be better than Trump at the job of being president? I should fall prostrate on the ground as any real supporter would and offer him fellatio, or else I'm condescending. That how it works? Again, and I'm not repeating this again because I think you have a chance of getting it THIS time. I don't vote in the Primary for who I think will win. I vote for the person I want to run against the opposition. And then in the general election, I will vote for the side that gives the best outcome.

And that word condescension. If you've been paying any attention, and if you have any capacity to look past your contempt for me, I don't think "condescension" means what you think it means. That you think it's the best description means you really don't have a clue about what I think. And I'm giving you benefit of doubt that it's merely a foreign concept to you rather than you just being dishonest on the internet.

 

[jamil]

My uneducated opinion: Trump is the only Nominee for the Republican Party.. Not because of the stolen 2020 election, but because he again in my opinion Deserves it! He has withstood all the Democrats could throw at him, most of which is now proven to have been made up B.S. meant to discredit and destroy him. He is the reason that we have seen the people behind the curtain, forcing them to expedite their agenda thus exposing their plans for not just our Country but the World. Then there is the stark contrast between our Country during his time and both Obama and Bidens Presidency’s ! Our Country thrived under Trump everything from our economy to World peace. Is he perfect? Hell no! But show me someone who is or was! Trump is a fighter and I will appreciate ad support a leader who is willing to stand in front of the enemy to protect their people and the way I see it that’s who he is, a defender of the Republic. Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, this is mine you don’t have to like it or agree with it!

Okay. I can see where you think he deserves it. And I assume by "deserve" you mean that he has earned the job because of performance, and not the typical way some INGO Trumpers like to say "deserves it" as if he is owed your vote.

But let me ask, has he really withstood all the Democrats could throw at him? It's unprecedented, I'll say that much. I've never seen all the institutional power brought to bear on one man in my lifetime. But. How much has he brought upon himself through his own actions? How much has he helped his enemies build the straw monster that they're tearing down? I don't think he's the best player in the game right now other than having the capacity to exploit the witch hunt and indictments to his advantage. And that only plays to his ability to get elected, and not to his ability to actually affect a successful strategy against ClownWorld™. That's the way it looks to me.

 

[Ziggidy]

It’s not going to matter who wins against Biden if we do not win the house and senate, and not with rhinos. We need an all out blitz against the communist party, the left, the demoncrats. The war against Trump (if he wins) will not change. The war against the USA will not change. The potential for enemy invasion will be very stronG; WWIII will most likely occur. Further USA division will occur and weaken us from all sides. The only winners in this would be the party in charge. The people will lose and lose bit. Think it’s rough now?

We need to get out the vote.

 

[KG1]

All hands on deck.

 

[Ingomike]

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, this is mine you don’t have to like it or agree with it!

I love it…

 

[Ziggidy]

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, this is mine you don’t have to like it or agree with it!

But…but…but……..LOL

 

[oze]

If Trumpers find it insulting or condescending that I would only vote for Trump in a general election as a last resort, and never in a primary, fine. lf he wins the Repub nomination, ima write in Todd Young.

 

[billmyn]

Okay. I can see where you think he deserves it. And I assume by "deserve" you mean that he has earned the job because of performance, and not the typical way some INGO Trumpers like to say "deserves it" as if he is owed your vote.

But let me ask, has he really withstood all the Democrats could throw at him? It's unprecedented, I'll say that much. I've never seen all the institutional power brought to bear on one man in my lifetime. But. How much has he brought upon himself through his own actions? How much has he helped his enemies build the straw monster that they're tearing down? I don't think he's the best player in the game right now other than having the capacity to exploit the witch hunt and indictments to his advantage. And that only plays to his ability to get elected, and not to his ability to actually affect a successful strategy against ClownWorld™. That's the way it looks to me.

You are correct about my meaning earned would have been a better word. Trump came into politics very ignorant and arrogant, it’s took him some time to acclimate himself to the Politically correct processes! Do I think he has brought some things upon himself? Absolutely without a doubt! But I have learned that fights have to be fought regardless of the level to which your opponents decide to fight. Being the better man only emboldens them! I’ve learned this myself over the last 3years dealing with the woke Victimhood society that we currently live in! Trump was just ahead of the curb in his fighting tactics. I love my Country and still have faith in Americans but we really have to do a 180 if we are going to regain our Republic. I still believe after looking at all the candidates that Trump is the only one who can turn this around and has proven that he has the focus and the courage to fight the fights. As for VP Ramaswamy is my pick and I think a great balance to Trump!

 

[BugI02]

When did I present my thoughts on the election as anything but opinion or speculation? At this point, your thoughts aren't any more than that either.

Maybe there's hope for you yet, providing you can wrap your head around your opinions just being your opinions and neither any better or any worse than anyone elses

 

[Ingomike]

You are correct about my meaning earned would have been a better word. Trump came into politics very ignorant and arrogant, it’s took him some time to acclimate himself to the Politically correct processes! Do I think he has brought some things upon himself? Absolutely without a doubt! But I have learned that fights have to be fought regardless of the level to which your opponents decide to fight. Being the better man only emboldens them! I’ve learned this myself over the last 3years dealing with the woke Victimhood society that we currently live in! Trump was just ahead of the curb in his fighting tactics. I love my Country and still have faith in Americans but we really have to do a 180 if we are going to regain our Republic. I still believe after looking at all the candidates that Trump is the only one who can turn this around and has proven that he has the focus and the courage to fight the fights. As for VP Ramaswamy is my pick and I think a great balance to Trump!

The ABT’ers are looking for a nice guy that talks sweet to them, they can’t stand the only President in my lifetime to actually wall the walk, which is why the left goes after him so hard…

 

[BugI02]

Okay. Looks like we're on the same page. You're the one who made up that "carefully considering" ********. Did you start saying it so many times you started to believe it? But, I will call you out when I think you're saying **** more out of fierce loyalty than because of reality. Now if you catch me making a point because I'm thinking like an individualist, I guess you got me.

Dood, you are ALWAYS on about the even-handed careful consideration (not your exact words, short hand for the whole sorry spectacle so spare me the 'I never said that' dodge that has become standard) you bring to decisions. You are always trying to sell how your diligence is more due than anyone else and its just bull****

If you were honest you would just admit you think anyone who disagrees with you hasn't done their homework. I'm not trying to disguise the fact that I have a guy who I want to see back in the whitehouse. You're the one trying to disguise you have a guy now and that if you feel the need to move on because of the eventual cratering of that guy then you'll have another guy who will not be Trump. If that isn't ABT, I don't know what is. Most people think it's a two man race between Trump and DeSantis, but somehow I don't see you switching to Trump when DeSantis goes down despite the fact that he would be (to you) the next best candidate. You'll start trying to prop up Ramaswamy or some other second tier candidate as the next GWH. But no, that isn't delusional or counter-productive because you automatically accord what you want to do as rational and effective solely because you want to do it

And you know, I wouldn't begrudge you that except for that need to make a decision based on purely personal bias out to be some purely rational decision based on just the facts

 

[BugI02]

See, now this is where I see your bias for Trump poking through. I can conceive of a situation in which I would conclude that Trump makes the most sense. And I've already told you what that is several times. In May, if DeSantis is either not in the race, or has pissed me off too many times, at that point Trump would be the best choice available. And you keep calling that condescension.

What I'm calling out is what will you do between grudgingly voting for him in the primary and grudgingly voting for him in the general, which I expect to be nothing

I suspect that you and your fellow travelers will be performing the role of back bencher and contributing nothing beyond a vote to the effort to get a republican president elected, although you will continue to beat the drum for how existential the election will be up until then

 

[BugI02]

And that word condescension. If you've been paying any attention, and if you have any capacity to look past your contempt for me, I don't think "condescension" means what you think it means.

[checks online dictionary]

con·de·scen·sion
noun
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain.

Nope, it means what I think it means and the usage is correct

 

[nonobaddog]

If you were honest you would just admit you think anyone who disagrees with you hasn't done their homework.

It is amazing how frequently I find this turns out to be true for me too.