Daylight Saving Time

[jamil]

Sunrise at 4:15 would be awesome. It would give me a whole hour to drink my coffee and then I could start being productive.

Just think though. If the sun didn’t rise until 5:15, you could drink coffee tor TWO hours.

 

[ATM]

I Love DST, there I said it! It gives me evening light for work or play. Have little use for daylight at 4:00am...

MM

You haven't made any reasonable case for shifting that much-needed hour of evening light back to the morning for a few winter months.

Also, daylight doesn't become any more or less useful based on clock settings, you're simply not accustomed to having daylight available when the clock reads 4am. If that became a thing, everyone who wants to use it would adjust their schedule to do so. Once.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Just think though. If the sun didn’t rise until 5:15, you could drink coffee tor TWO hours.

Oh alright, I could live with 5:15, but when I have to wait until 7 or 7:30, then it's starting to get close to lunch time, and I'm starting to lose motivation.

Kidding aside, I know I'm a morning person. DoggyMama is the opposite. By the time I'm ready to wind down for the day (4 or 5 p.m.), she's wanting to start projects (read: she's ready for ME to start projects). Then I'm sittin' on my butt and feel guilty that she's doing work so I end up getting involved. We both go to bed at around 8 or 8:30 p.m., but whereas I get up around 3:15 - 4:15 (weekends), she'll be in bed a good 4 or 5 hours longer. I remind her of that when I need a one hour nap in the afternoon.

 

[jamil]

Oh alright, I could live with 5:15, but when I have to wait until 7 or 7:30, then it's starting to get close to lunch time, and I'm starting to lose motivation.

Kidding aside, I know I'm a morning person. DoggyMama is the opposite. By the time I'm ready to wind down for the day (4 or 5 p.m.), she's wanting to start projects (read: she's ready for ME to start projects). Then I'm sittin' on my butt and feel guilty that she's doing work so I end up getting involved. We both go to bed at around 8 or 8:30 p.m., but whereas I get up around 3:15 - 4:15 (weekends), she'll be in bed a good 4 or 5 hours longer. I remind her of that when I need a one hour nap in the afternoon.

I see a really simple solution to that.

 

[KLB]

What the heck do you mean "small area". My numbers apply within a couple of minutes to all of Indiana except CTZ. Under DST your late December sunrise is about 7:15am and sunset at 4:30pm, your summer sunrise is about 5:15am and sunset is 8:30pm. Without DST your summer would be 4:15am and 7:30pm I do not know many who want that. Due to the fact there is a line where one time zone ends and another begins and we just happen to live at that demarcation line we have different issues with time so we do the best we can.

DST is all about trying to adjust time to the daylight in order to use that daylight as efficiently as possible. If any of you have a better system, publish it for the good of all.

MM

And you think that Indiana is the whole country? You are on one side of one time zone. Go to other side of the time zone and it is totally different. Just like I am on the Eastern Edge of CST.

I can find no basis for your reasons for DST. In fact from what I can find, the only real beneficiaries are retail store and golf courses. Looks like going to DST cost those of you that weren't doing it before money.

An October 2008 study conducted by the University of California at Santa Barbara for the National Bureau of Economic Research found that the 2006 DST adoption in Indiana increased energy consumption in Indiana by an average of 1%. Although consumption for lighting dropped as a result of the DST adoption, consumption for heating and cooling increased by 2% to 4%. The cost to the average Indiana household of the DST adoption was determined to be $3.29 per year, for an aggregate cost of $1.7 million to $5.5 million per year.[14]

 

[actaeon277]

I have been convinced.
I am a convert.
I believe it soooo much now, that I think we should shift the clocks on the first of EVERY month.
Think of how much we will "save".

 

[ATM]

I have been convinced.
I am a convert.
I believe it soooo much now, that I think we should shift the clocks on the first of EVERY month.
Think of how much we will "save".

I'd be willing to go along with this for 1 year provided we shift the hour in the same direction each month (none of this back and forth silliness!)
Next year at this time, everything will be the same except we'll have swapped am and pm.

 

[jamil]

I'd be willing to go along with this for 1 year provided we shift the hour in the same direction each month (none of this back and forth silliness!)
Next year at this time, everything will be the same except we'll have swapped am and pm.

Nah. That's no fun. It should be a pseudo-random hour offset from EST. I say hour because I'm not that sadistic to make it minutes.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I'd be willing to go along with this for 1 year provided we shift the hour in the same direction each month (none of this back and forth silliness!)
Next year at this time, everything will be the same except we'll have swapped am and pm.

3:43 p.m. as I'm typing this now. I'd be enjoying my morning coffee. Of course then at some point I'd be *****ing because it's so damned hot when I get up in the summer.

 

[Ingomike]

And you think that Indiana is the whole country? You are on one side of one time zone. Go to other side of the time zone and it is totally different. Just like I am on the Eastern Edge of CST.

I can find no basis for your reasons for DST. In fact from what I can find, the only real beneficiaries are retail store and golf courses. Looks like going to DST cost those of you that weren't doing it before money.

No I do not think Indiana is the whole country. The approximate 100 miles or so of each side of time zone lines has the same issues, and if near a population center will likely have people complaining. We get more complaining here because it was not that way for all the peoples lives as in other places.


If you you do not think an extra hour of light after most folks work is not valuable, if you do not want to fish, shoot, or yes, play golf, I do not know how to help you.

MM

 

[eldirector]

Here, exactly, is why some many folks are annoyed:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...imezones-countries-false-sense-sun-rises.html

The darker the red, the farther from "solar noon" that area is. Essentially, DST puts us in the wrong time zone for part of the year.

We COULD adjust time zones such that Solar Noon was accurate to within 30 minutes in every time zone, if we wanted. That was the initial point of Time Zones, before all this idiocy. Today, we can be off by more than an hour part of the year, and then "correct" part of the year.

Guess we are lucky, though. Parts of the world (China and the Russian States, for example) can be off by 2+ hours.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I just came to say, I love DST

 

[jamil]

Here, exactly, is why some many folks are annoyed:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...imezones-countries-false-sense-sun-rises.html

The darker the red, the farther from "solar noon" that area is. Essentially, DST puts us in the wrong time zone for part of the year.

We COULD adjust time zones such that Solar Noon was accurate to within 30 minutes in every time zone, if we wanted. That was the initial point of Time Zones, before all this idiocy. Today, we can be off by more than an hour part of the year, and then "correct" part of the year.

Guess we are lucky, though. Parts of the world (China and the Russian States, for example) can be off by 2+ hours.

I'm not sure that in most people's day to day lives that solar noon is as important. Many people do want more hours of daylight after they get off work. I do. Daylight in the morning isn't as important. And when you take your lunch hour, it doesn't matter if the sun is at solar noon or +/- 15 degrees.

Part of the reason time zones don't necessarily reflect solar noon is for political reasons. Many municipalities want to be in the same time zones as the nearest mega-municipality. When you have a highly scaled society, factors in satisfaction with the clock are too many to make it simple. Yes, it's possible to redraw the time zones so that everyone's clock is closer to a true solar noon. But then you hit the plurality of factors and maybe some people who were unhappy with the clock are now happier, but the opposite will also be true. You could take ATM's course of action and just set his own clock to his own liking. But that's not a great option for people who are more dependent on the time-keeping for the rest of society.

Maybe a better option would be to do away with time zones altogether and universally observe UTC. The hitch there is, if you're a businessperson in Indianapolis and you need to travel to the West Coast, you'd have to be aware of what hours they keep on the UTC clock. But that seems quite manageable considering we have to consider what time zone they're in today. Where I work we have to consider the time zones of people who work remotely from all over the nation, and some in Europe, some in India. It's not much difference to consider their business hours on the UTC clock. I think that would actually be even easier. I'm sure there would be unintended consequences for such a switch, but there were unintended consequences realized for the system we have.

As the world gets more "global" I think time zones are kinda becoming obsolete and a universal time keeping system could make more sense than the wall clock reflecting when true solar noon is.







And then there's Alaska. Once you get that far north, it kinda doesn't matter all that much. It's solar noon isn't as important.

 

[eldirector]

I suppose we just have differing opinions. I don't want MORE hours of daylight after "work". I want it to be dark at a reasonable time, not after 9:30 pm in the summer. I also don't want to get up multiple hours before dawn a good part of the year, just because a few political folks want me to.

Yes, I agree that the only reason Indiana observes DST is so we can jump off the same bridge as all of our "friends". Purely political. Leave it to the government to screw up TIME.

Is the artificiality of it all that annoys me. We change because others change. The kicker, is that now we are all "wrong" but pretend we are correct, because at least we are all wrong together.

I already work in a global company. We have offices and clients all over the world. My working hours are semi-independent of local time. We all adjust to do our business when it is mutually beneficial, and the least disruptive. Things like DST make it WORSE. Some folks change, some don't, and then not all on the same day. What a flipping cluster twice a year. Just so some yahoos can have see an extra hour of daylight out the window while they watch TV in the evening. </rant>

I'd go for GMT with no DST, for sure. Certainly make business easier. No conversions. No confusion. Ok, well, we still have a date line in there to worry about. So strange talking to our Aussie friends tomorrow, today.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I suppose we just have differing opinions. I don't want MORE hours of daylight after "work". I want it to be dark at a reasonable time, not after 9:30 pm in the summer. I also don't want to get up multiple hours before dawn a good part of the year, just because a few political folks want me to.

Yes, I agree that the only reason Indiana observes DST is so we can jump off the same bridge as all of our "friends". Purely political. Leave it to the government to screw up TIME.

Is the artificiality of it all that annoys me. We change because others change. The kicker, is that now we are all "wrong" but pretend we are correct, because at least we are all wrong together.

I already work in a global company. We have offices and clients all over the world. My working hours are semi-independent of local time. We all adjust to do our business when it is mutually beneficial, and the least disruptive. Things like DST make it WORSE. Some folks change, some don't, and then not all on the same day. What a flipping cluster twice a year. Just so some yahoos can have see an extra hour of daylight out the window while they watch TV in the evening. </rant>

I'd go for GMT with no DST, for sure. Certainly make business easier. No conversions. No confusion. Ok, well, we still have a date line in there to worry about. So strange talking to our Aussie friends tomorrow, today.

I used to have a friend in Australia and it was a standing joke for me to ask her, "How's tomorrow looking? Worth getting up for or no?"

 

[jamil]

I suppose we just have differing opinions. I don't want MORE hours of daylight after "work". I want it to be dark at a reasonable time, not after 9:30 pm in the summer. I also don't want to get up multiple hours before dawn a good part of the year, just because a few political folks want me to.

Yes, I agree that the only reason Indiana observes DST is so we can jump off the same bridge as all of our "friends". Purely political. Leave it to the government to screw up TIME.

Is the artificiality of it all that annoys me. We change because others change. The kicker, is that now we are all "wrong" but pretend we are correct, because at least we are all wrong together.

I already work in a global company. We have offices and clients all over the world. My working hours are semi-independent of local time. We all adjust to do our business when it is mutually beneficial, and the least disruptive. Things like DST make it WORSE. Some folks change, some don't, and then not all on the same day. What a flipping cluster twice a year. Just so some yahoos can have see an extra hour of daylight out the window while they watch TV in the evening. </rant>

I'd go for GMT with no DST, for sure. Certainly make business easier. No conversions. No confusion. Ok, well, we still have a date line in there to worry about. So strange talking to our Aussie friends tomorrow, today.

There'd still be some kind of conversion. You'd have to know when on the UTC clock they start their workday. Dates aren't a problem really. It's just a coarser part of time. I think the devil would be in the details. How would regions decide when to start the work day? How much variance would there be? How would they handle variance? Would they try to minimize it? I haven't really thought about it in much depth yet, but seems that would be the biggest drawback from first glance.

 

[BugI02]

I'm not sure that in most people's day to day lives that solar noon is as important. Many people do want more hours of daylight after they get off work. I do. Daylight in the morning isn't as important. And when you take your lunch hour, it doesn't matter if the sun is at solar noon or +/- 15 degrees.

Part of the reason time zones don't necessarily reflect solar noon is for political reasons. Many municipalities want to be in the same time zones as the nearest mega-municipality. When you have a highly scaled society, factors in satisfaction with the clock are too many to make it simple. Yes, it's possible to redraw the time zones so that everyone's clock is closer to a true solar noon. But then you hit the plurality of factors and maybe some people who were unhappy with the clock are now happier, but the opposite will also be true. You could take ATM's course of action and just set his own clock to his own liking. But that's not a great option for people who are more dependent on the time-keeping for the rest of society.

Maybe a better option would be to do away with time zones altogether and universally observe UTC. The hitch there is, if you're a businessperson in Indianapolis and you need to travel to the West Coast, you'd have to be aware of what hours they keep on the UTC clock. But that seems quite manageable considering we have to consider what time zone they're in today. Where I work we have to consider the time zones of people who work remotely from all over the nation, and some in Europe, some in India. It's not much difference to consider their business hours on the UTC clock. I think that would actually be even easier. I'm sure there would be unintended consequences for such a switch, but there were unintended consequences realized for the system we have.

As the world gets more "global" I think time zones are kinda becoming obsolete and a universal time keeping system could make more sense than the wall clock reflecting when true solar noon is.







And then there's Alaska. Once you get that far north, it kinda doesn't matter all that much. It's solar noon isn't as important.

This, sadly. Since almost no one under forty wears a watch, and they all rely on their phone for timekeeping, just get the wireless companies to switch to UTC and within a generation the issue will go away

 

[jamil]

This, sadly. Since almost no one under forty wears a watch, and they all rely on their phone for timekeeping, just get the wireless companies to switch to UTC and within a generation the issue will go away

Apple watch is changing things. I've seen a lot of young people who wouldn't have warn a watch otherwise wear an apple watch. But that tends to support your point all the more.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Not without it’s problems but UTC.

That would definitely fix a lot of problems. But the first hurdle would be the social construct of time as it related to daylight. Yeah, 1st shifters here would be waking at 11AM as the sun rose, (formerly 6am local), eating lunch at 4PM, dinner at 11PM, and going to bed at 3AM, but the daylight would still be the same.

That would be a huge social shift, that I doubt the masses would be willing to get behind. Because dammit, its always been dark at midnight! We cant have it still be light out at 11PM!!!

 

[jamil]

That would definitely fix a lot of problems. But the first hurdle would be the social construct of time as it related to daylight. Yeah, 1st shifters here would be waking at 11AM as the sun rose, (formerly 6am local), eating lunch at 4PM, dinner at 11PM, and going to bed at 3AM, but the daylight would still be the same.

That would be a huge social shift, that I doubt the masses would be willing to get behind. Because dammit, its always been dark at midnight! We cant have it still be light out at 11PM!!!

Yeah, it would be a huge social change. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, but eventually, if humanity doesn't end before, our current system based loosely on solar noon will be obsolete and things will just socially evolve towards what works.