CRS Firearms (Matt Hoover) Found Guilty (Auto Key Card Case)

[injb]

So here's the thing. My discussion of Chevron deference started with a discussion of whether a defendant should be allowed to argue that the agency, the ATF here, told him that what he was doing was legal. In no way did I mean to imply that the ATF used some novel, counterintuitive definition to screw an unwitting citizen. That happens....doesn't look like that is the case here. The statute has everything that is needed.

There is no unique definition involved. That is, I don't think they needed an ATF definition to convict on the machinegun counts. Mainly, this is because of the admissions on the YouTube channel made proving the intent of the card so easy.

If you have not watched the video linked above, 5 minutes of Matt Hoover Saying Incriminating Things- watch it and listen carefully, especially at the beginning. While you watch it, keep this definition in mind- this is the statute, not an ATF definition:


"(b) Machinegun. The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."

26 USC § 5845

Is the metal card with the etching on it "designed and intended solely and exclusively...for converting a weapon into a machine gun..."? There's enough there to let a jury decide without a special definition from the ATF.

"It's just a piece of metal"- sure...so why did Hoover specifically refer to it as having as a "Lightning Link" etched on it? Why did he say: "you have to manufacture it." This is evidence that he knew and expected people to use the card to make a "lightning link" to get to full auto.

Not saying they would not have pursued him anyway, but he talked himself into problems and made proving the "intended soley and exclusively.." part easy. Notice there is nothing in the actual statute that talks about how easily making the part work for a machine gun must be. Just a piece of paper with the same drawing? Probably OK because it cannot be used as a "part". However, the intention is for this very piece of metal to be used as THE part. That's a problem. His statements made it perfectly clear that's what the card was for.

"But what about a blank piece of metal?" Sell a card of metal with no markings on it that is the proper thickness WITH the drawing on paper and see what happens....no, seriously, don't.

Now- nothing I have said here should be interpreted as an endorsement of the law or definition. However, to discuss how the law is going to be (and has been) used, I don't have to believe it's right.

What I get from this is that even if ATF's advice to people was binding, and he had it in writing (or was able to get the agent to testify and confirm that he said it was ok) it still might not save him because the agent would say "yeah but you only asked if you could draw it on metal. You left out the bit about intending it to be used to make a machinegun"

 

[BigRed]

Has this one been discussed here?

I've never heard of any of these folks or the item, but I sure am glad to know atf saved me from them and keeps me safe.

 

[KG1]

So here's the thing. My discussion of Chevron deference started with a discussion of whether a defendant should be allowed to argue that the agency, the ATF here, told him that what he was doing was legal. In no way did I mean to imply that the ATF used some novel, counterintuitive definition to screw an unwitting citizen. That happens....doesn't look like that is the case here. The statute has everything that is needed.

There is no unique definition involved. That is, I don't think they needed an ATF definition to convict on the machinegun counts. Mainly, this is because of the admissions on the YouTube channel made proving the intent of the card so easy.

If you have not watched the video linked above, 5 minutes of Matt Hoover Saying Incriminating Things- watch it and listen carefully, especially at the beginning. While you watch it, keep this definition in mind- this is the statute, not an ATF definition:


"(b) Machinegun. The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."

26 USC § 5845

Is the metal card with the etching on it "designed and intended solely and exclusively...for converting a weapon into a machine gun..."? There's enough there to let a jury decide without a special definition from the ATF.

"It's just a piece of metal"- sure...so why did Hoover specifically refer to it as having as a "Lightning Link" etched on it? Why did he say: "you have to manufacture it." This is evidence that he knew and expected people to use the card to make a "lightning link" to get to full auto.

Not saying they would not have pursued him anyway, but he talked himself into problems and made proving the "intended soley and exclusively.." part easy. Notice there is nothing in the actual statute that talks about how easily making the part work for a machine gun must be. Just a piece of paper with the same drawing? Probably OK because it cannot be used as a "part". However, the intention is for this very piece of metal to be used as THE part. That's a problem. His statements made it perfectly clear that's what the card was for.

"But what about a blank piece of metal?" Sell a card of metal with no markings on it that is the proper thickness WITH the drawing on paper and see what happens....no, seriously, don't.

Now- nothing I have said here should be interpreted as an endorsement of the law or definition. However, to discuss how the law is going to be (and has been) used, I don't have to believe it's right.

Appreciate the discussion here Hough and the effort you made to lay all of this out. No matter what my position was in this legal exercise I will agree that Hoover did a lot of incredibly stupid things that contributed to the predicament he is in today.

 

[KG1]

I am now guilty of Murder:

View attachment 271593

You conspired with Crows.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You conspired with Crows.

And shall do so again.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Upon re-reading the last day, I DEMAND to know about boxes full of cash and how to get in on it.


NOT for me, but for my several car washes and laundry mats that I own.

 

[HoughMade]

Upon re-reading the last day, I DEMAND to know about boxes full of cash and how to get in on it.


NOT for me, but for my several car washes and laundry mats that I own.

Not interested in the Louis Vuitton?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Not interested in the Louis Vuitton?

Sure, that's a decent rifle and some upgrades.

But the image of boxes full of cash being delivered to some tatted up knucklehead in Wisconsin is just so poetic.

If involved in criming, don't make you tube videos about your criming or the feds will find out about all your other crimes.

 

[ChrisK]

As someone once stated "Stupid is what stupid does". I had a Chief Master Sergeant once tell me not to dance around the edges, you could fall in...

 

[HoughMade]

Sure, that's a decent rifle and some upgrades.

But the image of boxes full of cash being delivered to some tatted up knucklehead in Wisconsin is just so poetic.

If involved in criming, don't make you tube videos about your criming or the feds will find out about all your other crimes.

Personally, I like the part where he says that he can legally cut out the link from the card and use it because he is licensed, but when you buy the card, you'll have to cut it out yourself to go full auto. It's almost like he intends people to use this card to make a part to convert a firearm into a machine gun.

Is the law goofy? Sure. Welcome to the world of federal law. There are those who file lawsuits and fight the law. Then there are those who just do it, figuring that they're good. One of those groups gets to eat dinner at home every night.

Friends, there is nothing an AUSA likes more than having hours of video to play for a jury and not having to prepare for cross examination.

 

[KG1]

Sure, that's a decent rifle and some upgrades.

But the image of boxes full of cash being delivered to some tatted up knucklehead in Wisconsin is just so poetic.

If involved in criming, don't make you tube videos about your criming or the feds will find out about all your other crimes.

I herd if you wear a ballcap with the bill turned to the side while you are making those incriminating videos you are ok.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I herd if you wear a ballcap with the bill turned to the side while you are making those incriminating videos you are ok.

The well-known Dirtbag Doctrine. Yes, indeed.

 

[KG1]

Personally, I like the part where he says that he can legally cut out the link from the card and use it because he is licensed, but when you buy the card, you'll have to cut it out yourself to go full auto. It's almost like he intends people to use this card to make a part to convert a firearm into a machine gun.

Is the law goofy? Sure. Welcome to the world of federal law. There are those who file lawsuits and fight the law. Then there are those who just do it, figuring that they're good. One of those groups gets to eat dinner at home every night.

Friends, there is nothing an AUSA likes more than having hours of video to play for a jury and not having to prepare for cross examination.

Another big goof was when he was instructing potential buyers that might be reluctant to order one how to have it shipped a certain way in the mail to a relative if they are concerned about the ATF taking notice of their purchase.

 

[HoughMade]

Another big goof was when he was instructing potential buyers that might be reluctant to order one how to have it shipped a certain way in the mail to a relative if they are concerned about the ATF taking notice of their purchase.

It's almost like he anticipated that the ATF may view the product as illegal.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It's almost like he anticipated that the ATF may view the product as illegal.

Is knowledge of guilt admissible evidence? How long has that been going on?

 

[KG1]

Is the law goofy? Sure. Welcome to the world of federal law. There are those who file lawsuits and fight the law. Then there are those who just do it, figuring that they're good. One of those groups gets to eat dinner at home every night.

I think I even remember seeing him in one of his videos mentioning his young son and how they are trying to take his daddy away from him. Well genius you should have thought about that possibility before you decided to push the envelope.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Any business plan that involves cardboard boxes full of cash and making deliveries not at your address is suspect, at very least.

 

[ECS686]

Personally, I like the part where he says that he can legally cut out the link from the card and use it because he is licensed, but when you buy the card, you'll have to cut it out yourself to go full auto. It's almost like he intends people to use this card to make a part to convert a firearm into a machine gun.

Is the law goofy? Sure. Welcome to the world of federal law. There are those who file lawsuits and fight the law. Then there are those who just do it, figuring that they're good. One of those groups gets to eat dinner at home every night.

Friends, there is nothing an AUSA likes more than having hours of video to play for a jury and not having to prepare for cross examination.

Worked 20 years for DOJ. The tool that a US Attorney will use when there are 2 or more people involved is to slap a conspiracy charge on top as well. It is easy to get them tripped up in (especially since dips&$t put it on video) and enhances the charge adding an easy 120 months (The Feds always sentence in months)

From the DOJ press release looks like that’s exactly what happened as well as the other charges!

Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”

Jacksonville, Florida – United States Attorney Roger B. Handberg announces that a federal jury today found Kristopher Justinboyer Ervin (43, Orange Park) and Matthew Raymond Hoover (39, Wisconsin) guilty of conspiring to transfer unregistered machinegun conversion devices that they referred to...

www.justice.gov

 

[Angrysauce]

Congratulations. You all now are in possession of a picture of a picture of an out of spec lightning link. You are all now co-conspirators.
Especially, Kirk. Where do I deliver your bag of money and diamond bp?

 

[HoughMade]

Worked 20 years for DOJ. The tool that a US Attorney will use when there are 2 or more people involved is to slap a conspiracy charge on top as well. It is easy to get them tripped up in (especially since dips&$t put it on video) and enhances the charge adding an easy 120 months (The Feds always sentence in months)

From the DOJ press release looks like that’s exactly what happened as well as the other charges!

Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”

Jacksonville, Florida – United States Attorney Roger B. Handberg announces that a federal jury today found Kristopher Justinboyer Ervin (43, Orange Park) and Matthew Raymond Hoover (39, Wisconsin) guilty of conspiring to transfer unregistered machinegun conversion devices that they referred to...

www.justice.gov

Indeed. Also helps them keep both defendants in the same trial if the feds think that will help them.