Common OC/CC threadjack

[SavageEagle]

What? Did someone say something?

OC RULEZ!

Oh, uh. I"m sorry. You got me.

 

[kingnereli]

Total agreement here, now MORE COWBELL!!!!

Carrying a cow bell will get you killed!

 

[SavageEagle]

Carrying a cow bell will get you killed!

Unless you're at a HS football game.

 

[groovatron]

would definitely ankle or pocket carry a second pistol in most OC situations.......if BG jacks your gun, you are the first off his list of threats.....then you suprise him with pistol #2.........at this point he is fumbling with two guns...sounds good in theory but you never know

 

[Hornett]

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate."
Sun Tzu

 

[kingnereli]

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate."
Sun Tzu

If you have something to say it would be best expressed by something other then a seven thousand year old obsolete military manual. You may also look through any of the OC/CC threads. The "bad tactics" point has been well covered.

 

[cce1302]

If you have something to say it would be best expressed by something other then a seven thousand year old obsolete military manual. You may also look through any of the OC/CC threads. The "bad tactics" point has been well covered.

The Art of War is not really obsolete. It is still studied by our military.


Here is a justification for OC from that same text. VI.12.
When I wish to avoid battle I may defend myself simply by drawing a line on the ground; the enemy will be unable to attack me because I divert him from going where he wishes.

 

[ATM]

From another thread:

...By the way....here are a couple of instances where the bad guys were NOT scared by an openly carried magic talisman. Presented for your reading pleasure........

Are you armed and ready - in the gunshop? | Shooting Industry | Find Articles at BNET <---Click

Of course, nobody claims that all bad guys will always be deterred by OC. Simply that most of those criminals polled admitted more fear of the armed citizen than of similarly armed LEO.

From the article:

The third school of thought on how to carry your gun in a high-risk retail environment is the one I personally ascribe to: Keep it concealed on your person where it is always immediately available to you, and secured from most anyone else. I also buy into the idea that if something works for cops, it'll work for civilians facing the same dirtbags the cops face. Two of these concepts are backup handguns and concealed body armor.

So the reason for these attacks was not OCing but retail store robberies in spite of the fact.

A bit conflicted in that next bold line. OCing also seems to work for cops...

Any other thoughts?

 

[cce1302]

From another thread:


Of course, nobody claims that all bad guys will always be deterred by OC. Simply that most of those criminals polled admitted more fear of the armed citizen than of similarly armed LEO.

From the article:


So the reason for these attacks was not OCing but retail store robberies in spite of the fact.

A bit conflicted in that next bold line. OCing also seems to work for cops...

Any other thoughts?

Yeah, I would assume that someone robbing a gun store would assume that the employees/owner would be carrying a gun, whether OC or CC, and be prepared as such. I don't think the OC/CC deterrent debate works for people who, by nature of their job, are obviously armed.
For instance: the secret service generally conceal. Would OC be more of a deterrent? No, because the secret service are armed by nature of their position. Same with gun store employees.

Me, walking around in jeans and a polo shirt. If I'm CC, I just look like another target. OC, "hey, it might not be a good idea to rob this guy."

 

[Indy317]

OC, "hey, it might not be a good idea to rob this guy."

The flip side works just as well:

"hey, we could get $700 on the street selling that guy's Glock." OCing might prevent you from being a target, but it could just as easily make you a target. The fact is, no one can tell if they will become a victim by OCing or CCing, nor can they say with 100% certainty that OCing or CCing will prevent their victimization.

 

[dburkhead]

The flip side works just as well:

"hey, we could get $700 on the street selling that guy's Glock." OCing might prevent you from being a target, but it could just as easily make you a target. The fact is, no one can tell if they will become a victim by OCing or CCing, nor can they say with 100% certainty that OCing or CCing will prevent their victimization.

Same question that I've asked about the "target the person OC'ing first" speculation: Can you come up with any cases of it actually happening?

 

[cce1302]

The flip side works just as well:

"hey, we could get $700 on the street selling that guy's Glock." OCing might prevent you from being a target, but it could just as easily make you a target.

Yeah, if I were a criminal, I'd go for a $700 Glock, since a guy without a gun that he could kill me with probably isn't carrying a wallet with more than $700 worth of credit cards (I know I've got credit over $30,000, and that's after I closed some cards), some cash, maybe a watch that I could sell, and who knows what else.

The fact is, no one can tell if they will become a victim by OCing or CCing, nor can they say with 100% certainty that OCing or CCing will prevent their victimization.

Yeah, I guess that's why nobody is saying they with 100% certainty that OCing or CCing will prevent their victimization.

 

[SavageEagle]

Yeah, I guess that's why nobody is saying they with 100% certainty that OCing or CCing will prevent their victimization.

OC is for men, CC is for weenies. If your gun is small enough to CC I've got a slingshot I'll trade ya.

 

[BloodEclipse]

OC is for men, CC is for weenies. If your gun is small enough to CC I've got a slingshot I'll trade ya.

 

[lawrra]

OC is for men, CC is for weenies. If your gun is small enough to CC I've got a slingshot I'll trade ya.

Oh, come on. I OC and CC....at the same time! Not really, it's one or the other for me.

 

[SavageEagle]

Oh, come on. I OC and CC....at the same time! Not really, it's one or the other for me.

I guess you can say I CC sometimes. Sometimes my shirt hangs down over it. Then there's times when I go into Riley and I have to conceal. I make sure to wear big baggy shirts or big coats when I do that though.

My biggest gripe is having to park on the street when I have to drop the kids off at school after their doctors appt. I had to explain to a PPD officer that I had no choice since I had to leave my pistol in my car. Thought I was getting a ticket for sure that day.

 

[Markedup]

surprise bump to top

 

[ATM]

Well, since it's back at the top anyway...

A recent opinion I read on another forum regarding the "element of surprise" for thought:

I've done a LOT of thought about this. I've been carrying for a decade in various configurations, and I have CC permits from 3 states. I've worked for the DOJ and been involved with dozens of reports on exactly these sorts of issues. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air--its established fact.

I'm not criticizing YOU, I'm criticizing the thinking behind this whole "element of surprise" myth. You didn't come up with that idea--it was taught to you by some CC instructor, who is part of a larger community of "groupthink" that has bought into this myth as a way to justify their existence.

The idea that CC gives you some sort of "tactical advantage of surprise" is a myth perpetuated by CC instructors as part of their effort to appeal to a certain type of person, and as a way to justify their existence. It has no basis in research, no basis in tactical analysis, and no basis in self defense logic. If CC were such a big tactical advantage, then police and military would CC.

The whole point behind CC has NOTHING to do with "surprising the BG". The entire reason behind CC is that it allows people to be prepared to defend themselves without having to worry about "scaring the sheep" who have been brainwashed to believe that ALL guns are evil. CC is a "workaround" to allow people to carry and yet not cause hoplophobes, Anti's and soccer moms to get all worked up into a lather.

The only "tactical advantage" that CC provides is as a lure for BGs to lull them into a sense that you are an"easy mark", so you can then exercise the privilege that a CC permit gives you. CC GUARANTEES that you'll have to shoot.

Personally, I don't ever want to shoot someone. I hope and pray that I never draw my firearm in a self-defense situation. So OC, with the overt visual deterrence it affords, makes a LOT more sense.

If a mugger attacks someone who is OCing, hes not going to expect ANYTHING, because he's obviously so irrationally insane that he is incapable of critical thinking. I don't buy the "element of surprise" argument. It makes no sense in terms of logistics, tactics, and the timeline of events in such a situation. Someone who is determined to use lethal force in the commission of a crime is NOT going to be "surprised" if you retaliate.


Please provide a SINGLE documented instance in the US where a violent attacker "drew" on an OCer.

I'll wait...

From what I've seen, this has happened ONCE, and that was an event in Wisconsin about a month ago, and that incident has such dicey circumstances that many folks are of the opinion that it was some sort of staged "false flag" event by the "antis" to make OC look bad...


Now research on how many times a mugger "draws" on a CCer. You'll find that this happens SEVERAL times a month in the US...

The BG ALWAYS has the element of surprise on his side. CC means you will ALWAYS be working from a REACTIVE mode, which by definition means the other guy has the tactical upper hand. Period. End of discussion.

I'd MUCH rather have a BG leave me alone altogether because I'm OCing than be forced to shoot someone BECAUSE I was CCing and the BG thought I was an "easy mark". Avoidance or deterrence are ALWAYS preferable to conflict.

This isn't rocket science, here folks...

 

[Cemetery-man]

The BG ALWAYS has the element of surprise on his side.

Because he CC's!

 

[ATM]

Because he CC's!

(nice one)