Cleveland 12 yr old with toy gun shot in park

[Kutnupe14]

True to the reporting trends with Trayvon and MB the press is using the most innocent pic of the shot one to provide an immediate cudgel to use against the shooter.

http://www.islamveihsan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/tamir-rice.jpg

http://www.massappealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Tamir-Rice1.jpg

Seems to me he was big enough to be a threat, dressed like he might have been a threat, and he was big enough to know better. These other images provide a much more thug like appearance...and when someone is pointing a gun at you appearances are pretty much all you have to go on.

I'd like to see a chemical evaluation of the 12yr olds blood. What else might have led to the thought process of going to a public park and scaring people for fun then pulling your fake gun on police?

Maybe he was looking for suicide by cop?

Here goes another ridiculous post. The news is using the "most innocent pic?" Does this 12 year olds have a menacing pic somewhere floating on the net? And how does one dress to appear like he might have been a threat. It's absolutely idiotic that you weight your life, when a person is pointing a gun at you, based on their appearance.... THEYRE POINTING A GUN AT YOU! I'm don't think I'd give a guy wearing a blazer a khakis the benefit of the doubt over a guy wearing a Raiders jersey and camo shorts.

And please, provide the links where this kid is "much more thug-like" in appearance, so we all can know which people are obviously more dangerous than others.

 

[Kutnupe14]

And Jesus, I just saw the vid, and while I'll stop short of calling it a "bad" shoot, those officers tactics damn near made not shooting him impossible. They rolled right up on the kid. If this kid really did have a gun, and was intent on doing them harm, it's doubtful they would have been able to get out of the car before being engaged first. Absolutely no reason to press the issue in that way. They could/should have given themselves distance, with the protection of the car, and started giving commands.

 

[Denny347]

Maybe they meant to run him over but overshot him... deadly force by car or gun is no more or less deadly. Just spit balling.

 

[Yup!]

I though they said the video would make it clear as to what happened? This video is terrible and does nothing for me. Time for an investigation!


edited to add: at :21-:23 it appears he uses one hand too lift his cover and draw...

 

[Drail]

The video tells me nothing. But IF the officer was yelling "Let me see your hands!" as he rolled up and the perp reached into his waistband instead - the cop is going to shoot them. But we don't have enough info to make a determination.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

hey rolled right up on the kid. If this kid really did have a gun, and was intent on doing them harm, it's doubtful they would have been able to get out of the car before being engaged first.

Pffft, that's why they need tanks.

If the cops really believed the kid had a gun, NO FRICKIN' WAY they would roll into danger like that.

This one rebuttably stinks on ice, but I'll reserve final judgment.

 

[pitbulld45]

This is a tragedy on so many levels. It's too bad that a kid of that age can't play with a toy gun in this day and age. That being said, I wouldn't want to be an LEO in today's society. It's interesting that the police have been pretty much despised since the 60's and military service members (once despised) are now seen as heroes. I'm not knocking the turn-around of the public's treatment of its members of the military. I just don't quite understand exactly what has kept the perception of the police at rock bottom.

But once the military hero gets hired as a Leo he is now a bad guy. Yet he never changed as a person.

 

[pitbulld45]

Bad tactics for sure, complacency maybe. Would like to see the other angles that were talked about.

 

[Denny347]

Pffft, that's why they need tanks.

If the cops really believed the kid had a gun, NO FRICKIN' WAY they would roll into danger like that.

This one rebuttably stinks on ice, but I'll reserve final judgment.

Well, you hear the radio traffic? Dispatcher told them that a B/M 20yrs old was pointing a gun a people. Nothing about being a kid nor a toy gun. After shots were fired the officers still described him over the radio as a B/M 20's with a black handgun needing ambulance. So you have another reason not to think they though it was a real gun? They believed it was a real gun and they drove in like they did...now what?

 

[femurphy77]

I don't understand why you are saying this. This 12 yr old is no where a man sized human. But in the eyes of an out of control police officer, he probably looked like Andre the Giant.

To explain, Officer Wilson described himself as a 5 yr old in the arms of Hulk Hogan. Wilson is 6-4, 210lbs. He is bigger than the average man and no 5yr old. At least Wilson was well coached on what to say. I hope the CPD hire the same coach...

I didn't see you or any of the other members of the INGO jury anywhere in the vicinity of that kid. I know I couldn't tell A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G about his size, age, demeanor, etc from the grainy video.

I know I did not SEE an out of control kid, I saw a person of unknown stature, age, etc. fidgeting with his coat, I know after watching the video multiple times that I THINK the kids hands were at his side and it APPEARS the final time he reaches for his waist it looks to be in response to being shot because he falls immediately upon his hands reaching his belly.

All this internet bull **** about what we know and what we saw don't mean ****. Leave this kind of crap to Sharpton and Jackson and all the media and other racebaiting sensationalists. We can talk about this all we want but until the affected community stands up and says enough Ferguson, Cleveland and many more will continue to happen. We'll all wring our hands and say "it's a shame" and in a few months it will quiet down until the next time. Until the affected community says enough to the thug culture, the entitlement culture, the baby momma culture this will not stop. I'm not saying anymore or explaining further, if you can't read between those wide lines then you won't understand and I'm not getting banned to explain it.

 

[OakRiver]

I've seen two other angles of the shooting and additional footage of the young man walking on the sidewalk waving the gun and pointing at pedestrians. What this view doesn't show is when he sees the squad car pull up he pulls up his sweater to reveal the gun.

It'll be interesting to see the other footage of the incident. Without audio that video gives us plenty to speculate on, and few answers.

 

[2001FZ1]

I didn't see you or any of the other members of the INGO jury anywhere in the vicinity of that kid. I know I couldn't tell A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G about his size, age, demeanor, etc from the grainy video.

I know I did not SEE an out of control kid, I saw a person of unknown stature, age, etc. fidgeting with his coat, I know after watching the video multiple times that I THINK the kids hands were at his side and it APPEARS the final time he reaches for his waist it looks to be in response to being shot because he falls immediately upon his hands reaching his belly.

All this internet bull **** about what we know and what we saw don't mean ****. Leave this kind of crap to Sharpton and Jackson and all the media and other racebaiting sensationalists. We can talk about this all we want but until the affected community stands up and says enough Ferguson, Cleveland and many more will continue to happen. We'll all wring our hands and say "it's a shame" and in a few months it will quiet down until the next time. Until the affected community says enough to the thug culture, the entitlement culture, the baby momma culture this will not stop. I'm not saying anymore or explaining further, if you can't read between those wide lines then you won't understand and I'm not getting banned to explain it.

What that grainy video clearly shows is a couple of cops going full bore into a potentially dangerous situation, putting themselves in a bad spot where the only choice they have is to shoot and they knew this BEFORE the car stopped. You know as well as I do the cop had is gun drawn before he came up the kid. I'm pretty sure they don't train to do this. I'm pretty sure the SOP would be to stay back, access the situation, take cover, call for back up and then TALK to the kid before opening fire. No one was in immediate danger when they arrived on scene. So much failure on these two cops.

The ONLY thing that cop did right was shoot accurately and only shoot 2 times. I'm actually proud of him for that. Too many times we see/read about them shooting until the mag is empty and missing 50% or more of the time. (Off. Wilson is a prime example) And don't give me that BS about you couldn't do any better when in that situation. You are right, but I am not a cop that was trained for hours and hours on situations just like this. The most famous example is the black guy in NYC a couple years back that was shot at 50 times by police and he wasn't armed. Or the NYPD cops that shot 9 innocent people in the background when trying to shoot a bad guy with a gun from less than 10 feet.

 

[2001FZ1]

It'll be interesting to see the other footage of the incident. Without audio that video gives us plenty to speculate on, and few answers.

Just another reason why cops should be wearing body cameras all the time. And not those with crappy quality like the ones on the dash boards that make it hard to see what really happened (its like they are using a VHS recorder from '85). You can buy a Go Pro with HD quality for under $200. Having a HD quality video with sound can ONLY help the cops and justify their lawful actions. Cops that do not want cameras are trying to hide something. If Off. Wilson had a body camera on, none of the rioting in Ferguson would have happened. He could make a statement, show the video and it would have all been over with.

 

[OakRiver]

Just another reason why cops should be wearing body cameras all the time. And not those with crappy quality like the ones on the dash boards that make it hard to see what really happened (its like they are using a VHS recorder from '85). You can buy a Go Pro with HD quality for under $200. Having a HD quality video with sound can ONLY help the cops and justify their lawful actions. Cops that do not want cameras are trying to hide something. If Off. Wilson had a body camera on, none of the rioting in Ferguson would have happened. He could make a statement, show the video and it would have all been over with.

All the forensic evidence supported Wilson, yet look at all the good that did

 

[2001FZ1]

All the forensic evidence supported Wilson, yet look at all the good that did

Video is better proof to the public.

 

[OakRiver]

Video is better proof to the public.

Such as the video above that invites more speculation?

 

[BE Mike]

If the cops really believed the kid had a gun, NO FRICKIN' WAY they would roll into danger like that.

I thought that was what makes the police different from Joe Dokes. They run towards danger instead of away.

 

[prescut]

I thought it was a good shoot until I saw the video. Not enough time to give commands, no time to respond. Bad, bad procedure. Negligence.

 

[Denny347]

What that grainy video clearly shows is a couple of cops going full bore into a potentially dangerous situation, putting themselves in a bad spot where the only choice they have is to shoot and they knew this BEFORE the car stopped. You know as well as I do the cop had is gun drawn before he came up the kid. I'm pretty sure they don't train to do this. I'm pretty sure the SOP would be to stay back, access the situation, take cover, call for back up and then TALK to the kid before opening fire. No one was in immediate danger when they arrived on scene. So much failure on these two cops.

There are no SOP's when dealing with these types of situations. Sure on TV shows they talk about it but since each situation is so different that there can not be one SOP to cover them all. Uh, I always draw my gun before approaching an armed suspect. You're "pretty sure" huh? Maybe not. No one was in immediate danger? The camera has a very narrow picture, what do you know of the surroundings OUTSIDE the camera's eye?

The ONLY thing that cop did right was shoot accurately and only shoot 2 times. I'm actually proud of him for that. Too many times we see/read about them shooting until the mag is empty and missing 50% or more of the time. (Off. Wilson is a prime example) And don't give me that BS about you couldn't do any better when in that situation. You are right, but I am not a cop that was trained for hours and hours on situations just like this. The most famous example is the black guy in NYC a couple years back that was shot at 50 times by police and he wasn't armed. Or the NYPD cops that shot 9 innocent people in the background when trying to shoot a bad guy with a gun from less than 10 feet.

Good grief, you have a lot of bravado for being an internet expert. Sure, we have more training but in the end, we still have to fight through the same physiological processes every human suffers from during high stress. We do a great job usually. NYPD suffers from a severe lack of range time. 30 rounds a year is about all they get. The logistics of training 35,000 officers is difficult I would assume.

 

[Denny347]

I thought it was a good shoot until I saw the video. Not enough time to give commands, no time to respond. Bad, bad procedure. Negligence.

No audio and I cannot see the position of the passenger window. Could it be down? Could the passenger officer been yelling at the kid while driving up? Lots of questions with few answers. As expected since we arew not the ones investigating this incident.