Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[DadSmith]

Where did you copy and paste that from?

I don't its from my mind. The Scripture I do so it's not misquoted.

 

[JimmyC1924]

I don't its from my mind. The Scripture I do so it's not misquoted.

Ahh thanks for clarification makes since once you lay it out. Have a blessed day.

 

[DadSmith]

Ahh thanks for clarification makes since once you lay it out. Have a blessed day.

You as well.

 

[foszoe]

We were discussing 1 John 3:8-9


So you think man doesn't consciously make an effort to disobey God? That would be wrong because it's been that way since the Garden of Eden.

I specifically said knowing and not knowing.

Show me where in the Bible it says that they lied. If you can show me where it says the midwives lied to .gov let me know.
It does say they didn't follow orders. Big difference from lying. So I'll wait for your proof from the Scriptures that they indeed lied to .gov.
It is my position because it's biblical and nowhere does it say the midwives lied.

Show me where in the Bible it says the midwives told the truth.

Nope I do not belong to any organization. You have to join one to belong to one.
It makes one independent from man's doctrines that are not biblical in many areas. Not all but many.

You are following the doctrines of one man, yourself, based on the understanding and interpretations of one man, yourself.

Where did you copy paste that from?
I'll read that book later.

Where i got it from is in the first part of it.

Glad you will read it later because it's the best answer to your questions

 

[DadSmith]

I specifically said knowing and not knowing.



Show me where in the Bible it says the midwives told the truth.

You're the one suggesting they lied so that burden is on you. I'll let you know it's not in there that they lied. According to your organizations dogma say they lied I'm guessing. Or is it your personal opinion?

You are following the doctrines of one man, yourself, based on the understanding and interpretations of one man, yourself.

I'm following God's word. I'm sorry you have to find comfort in others doctrines. I do not. I do however like to read and broaden my knowledge. A fool would be one who doesn't accept knowledge.

Where i got it from is in the first part of it.

Glad you will read it later because it's the best answer to your questions

I was hoping it came from you personally not your organizations doctrine. But I will read it. I agree with you most of the time, but when you say things that are not biblical like insinuating the midwives lied and the Bible does not say that. It says they disobeyed the order. That I disagree with. Also praying for the dead. That also isn't in the Bible.
So those areas are definitely not biblical.

 

[foszoe]

You're the one suggesting they lied so that burden is on you. I'll let you know it's not in there that they lied. According to your organizations dogma say they lied I'm guessing. Or is it your personal opinion?

It's my opinion. The text says neither that the lied or told the truth.

I'm following God's word. I'm sorry you have to find comfort in others doctrines. I do not. I do however like to read and broaden my knowledge. A fool would be one who doesn't accept knowledge.

That means you are forming your own doctrine.

No need to be sorry. You are quite correct that I find comfort in the doctrines of those that decided what books were in God's word, which I take to mean the Bible, for the Church is the pillar and grond of truth and I hold fast to the tradition she teaches for that tradition produced your Bible, at the very least, your new testament.

I wouldn't reload without consulting a manual, I wouldn't try to trace a wiring problem without a wiring diagram, and I wouldn't attempt to work out my salvation without consulting those who have gone on before me.

I was hoping it came from you personally not your organizations doctrine. But I will read it. I agree with you most of the time, but when you say things that are not biblical like insinuating the midwives lied and the Bible does not day that. It says they disobeyed the order. That I disagree with. Also praying for the dead. That also isn't in the Bible.
So those areas are definitely not biblical.

Not sure why you think they told the truth when the Bible does not say that...unless you are following some tradition.

Praying for the dead? Not sure where that came from, but it is in the Bible. Maccabees.Does it do any good? It's a matter of opinion.

 

[DadSmith]

It's my opinion. The text says neither that the lied or told the truth.

That means you are forming your own doctrine.

Negative the doctrine I follow is what the word of God says. It isn't mine.

No need to be sorry. You are quite correct that I find comfort in the doctrines of those that decided what books were in God's word, which I take to mean the Bible, for the Church is the pillar and grond of truth and I hold fast to the tradition she teaches for that tradition produced your Bible, at the very least, your new testament.

I can worship with Orthodox Christians, Calvinists, Messianic Jews, and Wesleyans. This separation of people who are disciples of Messiah Jesus of Nazareth isn't good. If a congregation teaches Biblical truth I have no problem. Aren't we all supposed to be brothers, and sisters in Jesus?

I wouldn't reload without consulting a manual, I wouldn't try to trace a wiring problem without a wiring diagram, and I wouldn't attempt to work out my salvation without consulting those who have gone on before me.

Not sure why you think they told the truth when the Bible does not say that...unless you are following some tradition.

What's wrong with following God's word only?
Studying it from the Septuagint, Tanakh, Textus Receptus? Reading commentary etc?

Praying for the dead? Not sure where that came from, but it is in the Bible. Maccabees.Does it do any good? It's a matter of opinion.

What Bible the Maccabees are not part of the Jewish Tanakh nor a part of the New Covenant Textus Receptus.
I know it's in the Maccabees.
It's not biblical.

 

[foszoe]

Negative the doctrine I follow is what the word of God says. It isn't mine.

It's clear the you believe your understanding of the word of God to be infallible. No need to go back and forth about it.

I can worship with Orthodox Christians, Calvinists, Messianic Jews, and Wesleyans. This separation of people who are disciples of Messiah Jesus of Nazareth isn't good. If a congregation teaches Biblical truth I have no problem. Aren't we all supposed to be brothers, and sisters in Jesus?

Yes we are.

What's wrong with following God's word only?
Studying it from the Septuagint, Tanakh, Textus Receptus? Reading commentary etc?

It's not biblical to do so.

What Bible the Maccabees are not part of the Jewish Tanakh nor a part of the New Covenant Textus Receptus.
I know it's in the Maccabees.
It's not biblical.

According to the Bible of your tradition. Your tradition attempts to take out of the Bible things that your tradition disagrees with.

It's also in 2 Tim but your tradition will decide the interpretation much as it does for the midwives.

 

[DadSmith]

It's clear the you believe your understanding of the word of God to be infallible. No need to go back and forth about it.

No I do not.
Just because I disagree with many Doctrines that do not teach the whole word if God or add to it doesn't make me a know it all.
If I knew it all why would I still be reaching out to read from other Christians and their take on the Scripture.
I know what you are insinuating and it's wrong of you.
Just because I question and find that many Doctrines of many church organizations to not live up to God's word doesn't make me a know it all.
Just because I call you out on things that are not biblical in your Doctrines doesn't make me a know it all. I see things that are not biblical.

Yes we are.

Thank you.

According to the Bible of your tradition. Your tradition attempts to take out of the Bible things that your tradition disagrees with.

Tradition is speaking of what is Traditional from the Old Covenant thru the New Covenant. That is my understanding of it.

It's also in 2 Tim but your tradition will decide the interpretation much as it does for the midwives.

The Bible is the primary source of all Christian doctrine and practice. So if one follows the Doctrines set forth in the Bible he has biblical tradition and doctrine.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Notice the word Scripture.
What is the Doctrines taught in the New Covenant? That is doctrine I follow.

Do you find fault in doctrine coming from the Scriptures?
Do you prefer man making doctrine from tradition that isn't based on Scriptures?

Also notice reproof, and correction.
Since you believe that the midwives lied and its not biblical read the above about reproof, and correction. Same with praying for the dead.
Both beliefs are not biblical. Both are man's doctrines and not biblical.


Edit:
Do you agree or disagree that Scripture is the ultimate authority?

 

[foszoe]

No I do not.
Just because I disagree with many Doctrines that do not teach the whole word if God or add to it doesn't make me a know it all.
If I knew it all why would I still be reaching out to read from other Christians and their take on the Scripture.
I know what you are insinuating and it's wrong of you.

You disagree with many doctrines that do not teach the whole word of God as you understand it. I never said or used the phrase know it all. You are introducing language that I am not.

In the parts you think you do understand, you consider yourself infallible, not from haughtiness, but you are still certain you are right.

For example, going back to the midwives. You are certain they did not lie. The Bible is silent on this. It does not say they told the truth and it does not say they lied. It is open for interpretation. So I will ask you what you asked me, is it your opinion that they told the truth?

If you are certain they told the truth, then you are going beyond what the Bible itself says, and that is not an opinion.

Just because I question and find that many Doctrines of many church organizations to not live up to God's word doesn't make me a know it all.
Just because I call you out on things that are not biblical in your Doctrines doesn't make me a know it all. I see things that are not biblical.

You have not called me out on anything that the Orthodox Church doctrinally teaches that is not Biblical.
You are not that gracious in your statements though for you are certain you see things that are not Biblical. That is why I say you consider yourself infallible.

Tradition is speaking of what is Traditional from the Old Covenant thru the New Covenant. That is my understanding of it.

The Bible is the primary source of all Christian doctrine and practice. So if one follows the Doctrines set forth in the Bible he has biblical tradition and doctrine.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christ the the primary source of all Christian Doctrine and Practice.

The quote from 2 Timothy can only apply to the Old Testament. Even stretching it to incorporate Paul's letters, it still would not encompass all of the New Testament. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

This is another eisegetical reading. You approach the text with the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura and that decides how you interpret the text.

Notice the word Scripture.
What is the Doctrines taught in the New Covenant? That is doctrine I follow.

Do you find fault in doctrine coming from the Scriptures?
Do you prefer man making doctrine from tradition that isn't based on Scriptures?

I deny the premise that they are two separate things. Scripture is a part of Tradition. Without Tradition you would not have the scriptures.

Also notice reproof, and correction.
Since you believe that the midwives lied and its not biblical read the above about reproof, and correction. Same with praying for the dead.
Both beliefs are not biblical. Both are man's doctrines and not biblical.

Again, show how believing they lied is not biblical? Show how praying for the dead is not biblical?

It appears as if you are taking the approach that if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible it is not Biblical? Is that so?

If so, describe to me how the Sunday morning worship service at your church goes and show me explicitly how that service is conducted according to the Bible Explicitly.

Read the Bread of life Discourse below. It explicitly says 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

That is pretty explicit. Do you eat His flesh and Drink His blood?

This is what I am getting at when I keep saying according to one's interpretation. Those that want to take the Bible literally find ways to explain the literal meaning away when it doesn't fit their tradition.

Jesus the Bread of Life​

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus​

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

Do you agree or disagree that Scripture is the ultimate authority?

I disagree. Christ is the ultimate authority. Such a belief is ultimately unbiblical for the Bible nowhere makes the claim.

The Bible is not a Koran and we should not treat it as such. What do I base that on? The fruits of such a belief. Those that believe that Scripture is the ultimate authority have fractured the Body of Christ, which, as you would put it, is unbiblical.

First they say Scripture is the ultimate authority, then some will say not scripture but a specific version is the ultimate authority, then they say only a certain subset of Jewish scriptures are the ultimate authority, then they translate versions in such a way to support their beliefs and in like manner discount others. Then they come up with new doctrines based on their interpretations. They find proof for a "rapture", they find proof for chiliasm, they find proof for pretrib, post trib, mid trib. Those that believe that Scripture is the ultimate authority have fractured the Body of Christ, which, as you would put it, is unbiblical. Some will say well, that is not essential beliefs. Well if they are opinions, don't fracture the Body of Christ over them.

It's perfectly okay to have opinions, it is sin to fracture the Body of Christ.

But all of them will tell you Scripture is the Ultimate Authority.

 

[DadSmith]

I disagree. Christ is the ultimate authority. Such a belief is ultimately unbiblical for the Bible nowhere makes the claim.

The Bible is the word of God.
So you disagree that God's word is the ultimate authority. Jesus is the word made flesh.
You do not believe God the Father, or Jesus the son of God is the ultimate authority?

John 1: 1-14
Isaiah 40:8

Unless we are misunderstanding each other because of the limitations of text.