Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[45sRfun]

Verse 8: “The one who is doing sin from the devil is he, because from the beginning the devil sins. For this the Son of God has been manifested, in order to destroy the works of the devil.”
Verse 9: “Everyone who has been born from God sin he does not do, because His seed in him remains; and he is not able to sin because from God he has been born.”

This is probably a much closer translation of the Textus Receptus into English.

Well I would take "doing sin" and "sin he does not do" and put emphasis on the "do" part as an active, purposeful doing. As we know that nobody is without sin, I think the point of these verses is that Christians do not pursue sin. Interesting I am reading a book of meditations on the Epistles of John right now and recently read this regarding Verse 9: ". . . no one can be a half-Christian, that he should bear the name of Christ and still do the works of the devil."
--Samuel Heinrich Fröhlich, 1841

 

[DadSmith]

Well I would take "doing sin" and "sin he does not do" and put emphasis on the "do" part as an active, purposeful doing. As we know that nobody is without sin, I think the point of these verses is that Christians do not pursue sin. Interesting I am reading a book of meditations on the Epistles of John right now and recently read this regarding Verse 9: ". . . no one can be a half-Christian, that he should bear the name of Christ and still do the works of the devil."
--Samuel Heinrich Fröhlich, 1841

Also this Scripture.
Romans 6:1-6 NKJV
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
[2] Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
[3] Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
[4] Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[6] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

 

[Firehawk]

1 John 3:8-9 NKJV
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 3:8-9 KJV
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:8-9 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
[9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 3:8-9 NASB
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
[9] No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.


So do you believe this?

Yes, I believe it. It’s important to look at scripture in the context of the Bible. Or as some teachers say “let scripture interpret scripture”.

What is sin?
I like these definitions:

“If anyone, then, knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin to them” James 4:17

“Whatever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23

How many times have I passed a homeless person and a nudge in my spirit says “stop” and I don’t? That is sin.
How many times have a I thought I should call someone and check on them and encourage them and pray with them but I don’t? That is sin.
How many times have I realized I should spend more time with my kids and didn’t? That is sin.
On and on. Does this mean that I am “of the Devil”? I hope not! I think if we are honest with ourselves we can see that our lives are filled with sin. I like the versions that put it this way “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.” Although there may be sin in my life I do not make a “practice” of sinning. In my heart I want to be better and I try to do better. I strive to move closer to Jesus. I think most believers in Jesus would say the same. The difference is those who “practice” sin. They seek out sin and are not convicted of it. I “practice” my faith and moving closer to Jesus and sometimes I falter (sin).

 

[DadSmith]

Yes, I believe it. It’s important to look at scripture in the context of the Bible. Or as some teachers say “let scripture interpret scripture”.

What is sin?
I like these definitions:

“If anyone, then, knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin to them” James 4:17

“Whatever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23

How many times have I passed a homeless person and a nudge in my spirit says “stop” and I don’t? That is sin.
How many times have a I thought I should call someone and check on them and encourage them and pray with them but I don’t? That is sin.
How many times have I realized I should spend more time with my kids and didn’t? That is sin.
On and on. Does this mean that I am “of the Devil”? I hope not! I think if we are honest with ourselves we can see that our lives are filled with sin. I like the versions that put it this way “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.” Although there may be sin in my life I do not make a “practice” of sinning. In my heart I want to better and I try to do better. I strive to move closer to Jesus. I think most believers in Jesus would say the same. The difference is those who “practice” sin. They seek out sin and are not convicted of it. I “practice” my faith and moving closer to Jesus and sometimes I falter (sin).

It does not mean that sin has been removed. While we are still in these bodies we are tempted, and we still struggle with sin.
Sin, however, no longer has authority over us. We have the great potential to live obediently by the power, and anointing of the Holy Spirit.
If we do not walk in faith, however, and if we do not utilize truth, and submit to the leadership of the Holy Spirit there is going to be evidence of that old man still hanging around.
Although he has been crucified and is dead, in times of disobedience we can resurrect that old man or carnal nature/self, and serve sin again.

As Wesley put it we need to die to sin, and grow in grace daily.

I myself had a horrible problem cussing. Couldn't say a sentence without using words not pleasing to God. But after I turned my life over to Jesus of Nazareth and the Holy Spirit came in and helped me to stop. I had a horrible temper, and I am a changed person now because of dying to sin, and growing in grace daily.
I could go on, and on about the things I used to do, but I believe we all can give that same testimony.
It wasn't a preacher or friendly Christian that told me you can't do this or that. It was reading, and studying God's word, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[historian]

It's that time of year again. Halloween. I refuse to celebrate the occult and paganism. Wife thinks it's just harmless fun.

What's your thoughts?

We weren't allowed to celebrate Halloween in any way when I was a kid. It sucked. No Halloween parties, no trick or treating, no fun at all.

We take our kids trick or treating (in our neighborhood, this bussing kids around to the "better" houses is out of control) and we have fun. The kids like dressing up in costumes and going out late at night. Adult parties are fun as well.

I don't like the people who believe that it should be celebrated from Labor Day to Thanksgiving (I also oppose people who are decorating for Christmas immediately following Halloween). I also think despise the "Halloween all year" people who should be put in an asylum next to the "Christmas all year" people"

Once it is over, it is on to the greatest of all holidays, Thanksgiving!!!!

 

[foszoe]

Wow. I see some epic old time foszoe posts coming.....off work this week and some good bible verses to discuss.....plus I have been thinking of a faith and works comparison to faith vs works.....we'll see.

 

[historian]

Wow. I see some epic old time foszoe posts coming.....off work this week and some good bible verses to discuss.....plus I have been thinking of a faith and works comparison to faith vs works.....we'll see.

Somebody fire up the spare server....

 

[foszoe]

Some think they can sin, as long as they ask forgiveness afterwards it's okay.
Some think you do not sin knowing as a Christian. I'm with this group.
I believe those above verses along with many others describes where you stand spiritually if you knowingly, and willingly sin.

The first group is taking transactional salvation to the extreme, but they are half-right
The second group is half-right, but you can sin unknowingly, depending on how one defines sin.

The East defines sin according to the greek amartia, missing the mark. You are created in the image of God to grow in his Likeness. If you act contrary to that likeness, you are sinning, whether you know it or not.

Being raised Wesleyan. A common definition of sin was sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God. I believe Wesley himself is the source, but I haven't verified that.

So the danger of the second group is a lack of introspection. There is a reliance on God to reveal sin to me, but in an active manner, usually by reading the scripture or hearning a sermon I may come under "conviction".

Roman Catholics often get accused of belonging to group 1. The transaction is if I go to confession afterwards, its ok.
Protestants usually are closer to group 2. The transaction is I sin knowingly, I fall. Sometimes referred to as backslide, however if I do confess my sin, I am ok. So in the end state, group 1 and 2 are really the same. Given that the confession is sincere. So 2 halves make a whole!

However, there are some grey areas that can come into play when salvation is viewed as transactional, which is the predominant view of Roman Catholics and Protestants.

What if one lies to protect human life? Is that person in the first or second group?

Yes those are two broad brushes, but the transactional model is a product of the West. It is pretty much the root of the whole faith vs works debate which never took place in the East. In the early Church it was always Faith and Works, but not in the paradigm of the West.There is another way. A view of salvation as relational, the view of the Orthodox Church.

That doesn't mean the West doesn't value a relationship with Christ, but the relationship doesn't have anything to do with getting "saved" for Protestants or for Catholics. At the most the relationship is secondary to the "transaction". Being saved is the starting point for the relationship, especially for Protestants. For Catholics, if the confession is sincere, then the merits also must add up to pay the debt, here or in purgatory, and then the Catholic is saved.

Hence why Grace is called "unmerited favor" as a rebuttal to merits. It also why faith vs works became a thing because works earned merits to pay the debt in the Catholic view of salvation. The corruption of the merit system by such things as indulgences for money was a contributing factor to the Reformation.

For the East, being "saved" is decided at the time of your death depending on your lifelong relationship with Christ. Its faith and works because faith is built by works and works result from faith and both contribute to us growing in the likeness of God. This approach avoids the conflict between the two groups above.

 

[historian]

For the East, being "saved" is decided at the time of your death depending on your lifelong relationship with Christ. Its faith and works because faith is built by works and works result from faith and both contribute to us growing in the likeness of God. This approach avoids the conflict between the two groups above.

This is quite close to the Lutheran view (in theory, not in practice; in practice, they are just as bad as Baptists). Salvation is, to steal Eugene Peterson's title, a long obedience in the same direction. Salvation is not "Once Saved, Always Saved," but determined if you believe unto death. Baptism saves you if, by salvation, you mean imparts forgiveness, washes away original sin, and demonstrates the faithfulness of God. But you are free to walk away from that salvation at any time, and many do. You are, however, always welcome to return to the faith. I wish that we taught that doctrine better because people hear, "Baptism Saves You," and think that they are always going to Heaven now; just as a Baptist would say, the decision you made for Christ saves you and think that they are going to Heaven.

 

[DadSmith]

The first group is taking transactional salvation to the extreme, but they are half-right
The second group is half-right, but you can sin unknowingly, depending on how one defines sin.

Half right according to the Bible or according to some groups doctrine? The Bible in the verses quoted means extractly what it says. If you are doing/practicing sin you are not of God.

The East defines sin according to the greek amartia, missing the mark. You are created in the image of God to grow in his Likeness. If you act contrary to that likeness, you are sinning, whether you know it or not.

I agree we are responsible for acts committed even if we do not know.
Look how many that have died in history not knowing God's commands.

Being raised Wesleyan. A common definition of sin was sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God. I believe Wesley himself is the source, but I haven't verified that.

The Bible teaches willful transgression/disobedience/rebellion is sin.

So the danger of the second group is a lack of introspection. There is a reliance on God to reveal sin to me, but in an active manner, usually by reading the scripture or hearning a sermon I may come under "conviction".

Roman Catholics often get accused of belonging to group 1. The transaction is if I go to confession afterwards, its ok.
Protestants usually are closer to group 2. The transaction is I sin knowingly, I fall. Sometimes referred to as backslide, however if I do confess my sin, I am ok. So in the end state, group 1 and 2 are really the same. Given that the confession is sincere. So 2 halves make a whole!

What about we are not to continue sinning but get victory over the sin we have problems with through the Holy Spirits help, so we do not do them anymore?
We should struggle not to sin as best we can. It's a fight as Paul said. It's a race as well.
I believe one can get victory over the things that cause him to sin as Wesley said die to self and sin, and grow in grace daily.

However, there are some grey areas that can come into play when salvation is viewed as transactional, which is the predominant view of Roman Catholics and Protestants.

What if one lies to protect human life? Is that person in the first or second group?

It's a sin you should hold your tongue, and not answer. I believe that is in the Bible as well.
The spies sent to spy out the land of Canaan, and Jericho do you think they were announcing who they really were?

Yes those are two broad brushes, but the transactional model is a product of the West. It is pretty much the root of the whole faith vs works debate which never took place in the East. In the early Church it was always Faith and Works, but not in the paradigm of the West.There is another way. A view of salvation as relational, the view of the Orthodox Church.

Again a organizations doctrine vs another's.
Let's stick to God's word only.

That doesn't mean the West doesn't value a relationship with Christ, but the relationship doesn't have anything to do with getting "saved" for Protestants or for Catholics. At the most the relationship is secondary to the "transaction". Being saved is the starting point for the relationship, especially for Protestants. For Catholics, if the confession is sincere, then the merits also must add up to pay the debt, here or in purgatory, and then the Catholic is saved.

What does the Bible say on this?

Hence why Grace is called "unmerited favor" as a rebuttal to merits. It also why faith vs works became a thing because works earned merits to pay the debt in the Catholic view of salvation. The corruption of the merit system by such things as indulgences for money was a contributing factor to the Reformation.

Agree

For the East, being "saved" is decided at the time of your death depending on your lifelong relationship with Christ.

That again is one doctrine vs another.
What does the Bible say?

Its faith and works because faith is built by works and works result from faith and both contribute to us growing in the likeness of God. This approach avoids the conflict between the two groups above.

James 2:18-20 NKJV
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19] You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! [20] But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[foszoe]

Half right according to the Bible or according to some groups doctrine? The Bible in the verses quoted means extractly what it says. If you are doing/practicing sin you are not of God.

[/QUOTE]
The verses you orginally quoted from 1 John are what I believe you are referencing, if I am wrong let me know. None of those verses address the confession of sin.

I believe the Bible teaches that God forgives the sinner who repents or confesses sin which is another way of saying one is asking for forgiveness. If you disagree with me, I will try to look up some bible verses about it. The first group is asking for forgiveness afterwards. There is no need to ask forgiveness before one sins. You mentioned nothing about whether the confession was sincere or not, which is why I specified in my post that the confession was sincere.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

I agree we are responsible for acts committed even if we do not know.
Look how many that have died in history not knowing God's commands.

The Bible teaches willful transgression/disobedience/rebellion is sin.

The Bible teaches a lot more than that about sin. Sin is a word just like any word in an English Bible. It's a translation of a Greek word, ἁμαρτία, which was an archery term meaning to miss the mark. Anytime we fail to be Christlike, we miss the mark.

An encounter with Christ makes us aware of sin in our lives.

When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

What about we are not to continue sinning but get victory over the sin we have problems with through the Holy Spirits help, so we do not do them anymore?
We should struggle not to sin as best we can. It's a fight as Paul said. It's a race as well.
I believe one can get victory over the things that cause him to sin as Wesley said die to self and sin, and grow in grace daily.

As do I however, its a life long struggle. Its work.

And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The Lord's Prayer

It's a sin you should hold your tongue, and not answer. I believe that is in the Bible as well.
The spies sent to spy out the land of Canaan, and Jericho do you think they were announcing who they really were?

15. Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah;
16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.”
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.
18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”
19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty.
21 And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.

The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The proverbial Nazi at the door asking if you are hiding Jews, is coming in if you hold your tongue.
The Bible smugglers into the Iron Curtain.

Again a organizations doctrine vs another's.
Let's stick to God's word only.

What does the Bible say on this?

If that were possible there wouldn't be innumerable denominations all claiming to do the same thing, like it or not, that's the way it is.

The Bible teaches that at least 55 different things save you. But Protestant doctrine has often limited saved to mean "going to heaven". It is limited to saving "from" something.

That is a very limited view of what σῴζω means. Its much more encompassing than that. It measn healing from a wound. It means deliverance. It means a lot more than what is typically assumed.

You are about to drown and you yell save me! Peter.

You are the 4 friends of a paralytic, what saves? The Friends faith!

4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The prayer of the elders will save.

13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The Prayer of the Thief saves. "Remember me O Lord, in Your Kingdom"

The sheep didn't know they were saved.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Agree

That again is one doctrine vs another.
What does the Bible say?

Several of the scriptures above will address this.

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.


The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

The New King James Version. 1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

James 2:18-20 NKJV
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19] You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! [20] But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?