Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[DadSmith]

@foszoe
I got a line on a reprint of the Holy Way book.
A Christian publisher is going to print me one for $19+ shipping. If you want one let me know. I'll send you the information.

I'm reading this currently.

 

[foszoe]

@foszoe
I got a line on a reprint of the Holy Way book.
A Christian publisher is going to print me one for $19+ shipping. If you want one let me know. I'll send you the information.

I'm reading this currently.
View attachment 374795

I have a copy packed away somewhere.

 

[foszoe]

How can we best resist the logismoi or evil thoughts that attack us? Every day, we need to make a decision as to which thoughts we will allow to enter our minds. We need to screen them carefully and with great discernment: what we read; what we watch on TV [or the internet]; what movie we choose to see; what company we keep. We need to ‘take every thought captive to Christ’ [2 Cor. 10:5]. The mind of Christ can, through the Holy Spirit, control our thoughts, our intents, and our actions, if we submit to Him daily.

A little girl, after a wonderful day of play, said to her mother at bedtime, ‘I have had such a happy day!’ ‘I am glad,’ said the mother ‘but what made this day any different from yesterday?’ ‘Well, yesterday, I let my thoughts push me around, but today, I pushed my thoughts around.’ Jesus, you see, gives us the power to “push our thoughts around,” to control them, to keep them from victimizing and enslaving us.

From a book called Confronting and Controlling Thoughts from Fr Anthony Coniaris.

It reminded me of another quote from St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain.

The windows of the Temple of Solomon were covered with fine nets to prevent the entry of impure insects [Ezekiel 41:6]. This may serve as a reminder that he who does not want any impure passions of the senses to enter into his soul must drape his senses with [spiritual] nets. What are these nets? It is the memory of death, for one, our account before Christ on the day of judgment; the memory of eternal suffering. Through these, one can put away evil passions and sins when they come before one’s eyes and the other senses. St. Neils has confirmed that this is so: ‘Those who desire to keep their mind as a clean and pure temple, where the doors and windows are covered with fine nets to prevent the entry of impure insects, must similarly cover the senses by meditating on the sobering realities of the future judgment which prevent any impure images from creeping in.

 

[foszoe]

@foszoe
I got a line on a reprint of the Holy Way book.
A Christian publisher is going to print me one for $19+ shipping. If you want one let me know. I'll send you the information.

I'm reading this currently.
View attachment 374795

This was in my devotional reading today. You may find this interesting to compare/contrast with Wesley.

Understanding Christian Perfection​

We all naturally wish and are commanded to be perfect. The Lord commands: “Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect” [Matthew 5:48]. And St. Paul admonishes: “Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature” [I Cor. 14:20]. In another place he says: “…you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God” [Colossians 4:12].…[A similar] commandment is also found in the Old Testament. Thus God says to Israel in Deuteronomy: “You shall be blameless before the LORD your God” [Deut. 18:13]. And David [gave this advice to] his son Solomon: "And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and with a willing mind…”[1 Chronicles 28:9]. After all this, we cannot fail to see that God demands from Christians the fullness of perfection, that is, that we should be perfect in all virtues.

But if you, my reader beloved in Christ, wish to attain to such heights, you must first learn in what Christian perfection consists. For if you have not learned this, you may turn off the right path and go in a totally different direction, while thinking that you make progress toward perfection.

I will tell you plainly: the greatest and most perfect thing a [person] may desire to attain is to come near to God and dwell in union with Him.

There are many who say that the perfection of Christian life consists in fasts, vigils, [prostrations], sleeping on bare earth, and other similar austerities of the body. Others say that it consists in saying many prayers at home and in attending long services in Church. And there are others who think that our perfection consists entirely of mental prayer, solitude, seclusion, and silence. But the majority limit perfection to a strict observance of all the rules and practices laid down by the statutes, falling into no excess or deficiency, but preserving a golden moderation. Yet all these virtues do not by themselves constitute the Christian perfection we are seeking but are only means and methods for acquiring it.

There is no doubt whatever that they do represent means and effective means for attaining perfection in Christian life. For we see very many virtuous men who practice these virtues as they should, to acquire strength and power against their own sinful and evil nature; to gain, through these practices, courage to withstand temptations and seductions of our three main enemies: the flesh, the world, and the devil; and in and by the means to obtain the spiritual supports, so necessary to all servants of God, and especially to beginners.

They fast to subdue their unruly flesh; they practice vigils to sharpen their inner vision; they sleep on bare earth, lest they become soft through sleep; they bind their tongue by silence and go into solitude to avoid the slightest inducement to offend against the All-Holy God; they recite prayers, attend Church services, and perform other acts of devotion, to keep their minds on heavenly things; they read of the life and passion of our Lord, for the sole purpose of realizing more clearly their own deficientcies and [to know] the merciful loving-kindness of God—to learn and to desire to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, bearing their cross with self-denial and to make more and more ardent their love of God and their dislike of themselves [the sins they commit].

On the other hand, these same virtues may do more harm than their open omission, especially to those who take them as the sole basis of their life and their hope; not from their nature, since they are righteous and holy, but through the fault of those who use them not as they should be used; that is, when they pay attention only to the external practice of those virtues, and leave their heart to be moved by their own will and the will of the devil. For the latter, seeing that [such people] have left the right path, gleefully refrains from interfering with their physical endeavors and even allows them to increase and multiply their efforts, in obedience to their own vain thoughts. Experiencing with this [external behavior] certain spiritual stirrings and consolations, such people begin to imagine that they have already reached the state of angels and feel that God Himself is present in them. And at times, engrossed in the contemplation of some abstract and unearthly things, they imagine that they have completely transcended the sphere of this world and have been ravished to the third heaven.

However, anyone can see clearly how sinfully such people behave and how far they are from true perfection, if he [only] looks at their life and character. As a rule, they always wish to be preferred [over] others; they love to live according to their own will and are always stubborn in their decisions; they are blind in everything relating to themselves, but are very clear-sighted and domineering in examining the words and actions of others. If another man is held by others in the same esteem, which in their opinion they feel they should enjoy, they cannot bear it and become [overtly] hostile toward him. If anyone interferes with them in their pious occupations and works of asceticism, especially in the presence of others—God forbid!—they immediately become indignant, boil over with wrath, and become quite unlike themselves.

If, desirous to bring them to self-knowledge and of leading them to the right path of perfection, God sends them afflictions and sickness, or allows them to be persecuted, by which means He habitually tests His true and real servants, this test immediately shows what is hidden in their hearts, and how deeply they are corrupted by pride (emphasis added). For whatever affliction may visit them, they refuse to bend their necks to the yoke of God’s will and to trust in His righteous and secret judgments. They do not want to follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ…Who humbled Himself and suffered for our sakes, and they refuse to be humble, to consider themselves to be the lowest of all creatures, and to regard their persecutors as good friends, the tools of the divine bounty shown to them and helpers in their salvation.

Thus it is clear that they are in great danger. Their inner eye, that is their mind, being darkened, they see themselves with this and see wrongly. Thinking of their external pious works and deeming them good, they imagine that they have already reached perfection and, puffing themselves up, begin to judge others. After this, it is impossible for any man to turn such people, except through God’s special influence. An evident sinner will turn towards good more easily than a secret sinner, hiding under the cloak of visible [external only] virtues. Now, having seen clearly and definitely that spiritual life and perfection do not only consist in these visible virtues, of which we have spoken, you must also learn that it consists in nothing [less than] coming near to God and [achieving] union with Him, as was said in the beginning. With this is connected a heartfelt realization of the goodness and greatness of God, together with consciousness of our own nothingness and our proneness to every evil; love of God and dislike of ourselves; submission not only to God but also to all creatures, for the sake of love of God; renunciation of our own will and perfect obedience to the will of God; and moreover, desire for all this and its practice with a pure heart to the glory of God [I Corinthians 10:31], from sheer desire to please God and only because He Himself wishes it and because we should so love Him and work for Him.

This is the law of love, inscribed by the finger of God Himself in the hearts of His true servants! This is the renunciation of ourselves that God demands of us! This is the blessed yoke of Jesus Christ and His burden that is light! This is the submission to God’s will, which our Redeemer and Teacher demands form us both by His word and by His example! For did not our Master and the Author our salvation, our Lord Jesus Christ, tell us to say when praying to the heavenly Father: ‘Our Father…Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ [Matthew 6:10]? And did He not exclaim on the eve of His Passion: ‘Not my will but Thine be done’ [Luke 22:42]! And did He not say of His whole work: ‘For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent Me’ [John 6:38]?

Do you now see what this all means…? I presume that you express your readiness and are longing to reach the height of such perfection. Blessed be your zeal! But prepare yourself also for labor, sweat, and struggle from your first steps on the path. You must sacrifice everything to God and do only His will. … It is necessary to stifle your own wills [multiple desires] and be willing to…kill them altogether. …you must constantly oppose all evil in yourself and urge yourself toward good.

…plant in your heart…these dispositions: (1) do not rely only on yourself; (2) bear in your heart a perfect, all-daring trust in God alone; (3) strive without ceasing, and (4) remain constantly in prayer.

 

[DadSmith]

This was in my devotional reading today. You may find this interesting to compare/contrast with Wesley.

Okay thanks I'll read that soon.

 

[DadSmith]

This was in my devotional reading today. You may find this interesting to compare/contrast with Wesley.

I really don't see much difference. Wesley warned of the same problems, and basically taught similar.

 

[Magyars]

Sound familiar?
Deuteronomy 28:43-48
New International Version
43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

 

[JettaKnight]

Sound familiar?
Deuteronomy 28:43-48
New International Version
43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Maybe when I'm picking vegetables during 100F days for a pittance, and the "foreigner" is sitting in at my desk earning an engineering salary then I'll consider if this curse is the reason.

Verse 30 of that passage say this: "You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her." So, I'll believe the curse is in effect when I see all the passage, not just a cherry-picked segment.

And why would that curse happen? Because the Israelites (whom that whole passage is directed, not our nation) violated the commandments, and one of those is in the preceding chapter, verse 19: “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”


One need only turn a few pages to find:

He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

And in a similar vein:

The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

The same commandment is repeated in Exodus 22:21, Exodus 23:9.

I could go on...

 

[indiucky]

I've heard of this......

 

[DadSmith]

I ran across Replacement Theology.
I do not see how they get that. They must ignore many other verses of the Bible especially prophecy.

Anyone heard of this?

 

[foszoe]

I ran across Replacement Theology.
I do not see how they get that. They must ignore many other verses of the Bible especially prophecy.

Anyone heard of this?

Depends on the specific definition of what you are calling Replacement Theology.

You have probably been around long enough to read posts by me talking about how the OT should be interpreted through the NT and not the other way around. Some people call that Replacement Theology.

Replacement Theology can go by another name called Supersessionism.

Would you call this Replacement Theology?

The Church as Israel | Orthodox Church in America

In one sense, the Church of Christ did not come into being on the day of Pentecost.

essentialbeliefs.org

 

[DadSmith]

Depends on the specific definition of what you are calling Replacement Theology.

You have probably been around long enough to read posts by me talking about how the OT should be interpreted through the NT and not the other way around. Some people call that Replacement Theology.

Replacement Theology can go by another name called Supersessionism.

Would you call this Replacement Theology?

The Church as Israel | Orthodox Church in America

In one sense, the Church of Christ did not come into being on the day of Pentecost.

essentialbeliefs.org

Yes Supersessionism or Fulfillment Theology I've ran across all meaning the same thing.

 

[foszoe]

Yes Supersessionism or Fulfillment Theology I've ran across all meaning the same thing.

There are differences between fulfillment theology and replacement theology but at a forest level they can appear to be the same.

 

[DadSmith]

There are differences between fulfillment theology and replacement theology but at a forest level they can appear to be the same.

What are the differences?

 

[foszoe]

What are the differences?

It will be hard to answer that in a brief post, so if you want more, I will dig into the library for you. Also I am taking the wife into the hospital for a planned procedure so the usual I read my post many times before replying won't be happening so forgive.

That said one tell I have observed is in Replacement theology there is a tendency to call the Church the "New Israel" as if there is an "Old Israel" which would be the Jewish faith.

Fulfillment theology expands the promises to Israel to the Church and there is a tendency to make the claim that the Church is the faithful remnant of Israel.

Historically how we view the early Church can make the decision also.

This occurs, in my view, because there is a failure to understand that the Church was orginally Jewish to begin with. For example the earliest Christians did not call themselves Christians. They were given that label by others. The earliest Christians did not view themselves as Christians per se but as Jews who recognized Christ as the Messiah. They still went to synagogues and worshipped as Jews with that key exception. It was the Jews who drove the Jews/Christians out of their fellowship. So these Jews/Christians become the faithful remnant of Israel and thus represent the continuation of Israel. Not a New Israel. So I would think of myself more as a fulfillment Theology than a replacement theology.

That probably illustrates what I mean by forest level vs trees. Some will not recognize the distinction and will still believe Replacement/Fulfillment/Supersessionism are all the same.

Its kind of like, as an Orthodox Christian, I use icons/images in worship. No matter how often I tell my Protestant friends I am not worshiping an image, but I am rather venerating it. They will still think I am worshipping it.

A distinction without a difference some would say. That can apply to Replacment/Fulfillment/Supersessionism.

Whichever name it is given one result of it is clear.

Those who believe it in some form do not view the state of Israel as inheritors of God's promise and usually those that I encounter who reject the theology do assign the state of Israel as inheritors of God's promises.

 

[JettaKnight]

I ran across Replacement Theology.
I do not see how they get that. They must ignore many other verses of the Bible especially prophecy.

Anyone heard of this?

Familiar, don't agree with it.

 

[HoughMade]

Maybe when I'm picking vegetables during 100F days for a pittance, and the "foreigner" is sitting in at my desk earning an engineering salary then I'll consider if this curse is the reason.

Verse 30 of that passage say this: "You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her." So, I'll believe the curse is in effect when I see all the passage, not just a cherry-picked segment.

And why would that curse happen? Because the Israelites (whom that whole passage is directed, not our nation) violated the commandments, and one of those is in the preceding chapter, verse 19: “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”


One need only turn a few pages to find:

And in a similar vein:

The same commandment is repeated in Exodus 22:21, Exodus 23:9.

I could go on...

It's kinda key to figure out what was for Israel at a certain time and place....and that we're not Israel.

 

[historian]

It will be hard to answer that in a brief post, so if you want more, I will dig into the library for you. Also I am taking the wife into the hospital for a planned procedure so the usual I read my post many times before replying won't be happening so forgive.

That said one tell I have observed is in Replacement theology there is a tendency to call the Church the "New Israel" as if there is an "Old Israel" which would be the Jewish faith.

Fulfillment theology expands the promises to Israel to the Church and there is a tendency to make the claim that the Church is the faithful remnant of Israel.

Historically how we view the early Church can make the decision also.

This occurs, in my view, because there is a failure to understand that the Church was orginally Jewish to begin with. For example the earliest Christians did not call themselves Christians. They were given that label by others. The earliest Christians did not view themselves as Christians per se but as Jews who recognized Christ as the Messiah. They still went to synagogues and worshipped as Jews with that key exception. It was the Jews who drove the Jews/Christians out of their fellowship. So these Jews/Christians become the faithful remnant of Israel and thus represent the continuation of Israel. Not a New Israel. So I would think of myself more as a fulfillment Theology than a replacement theology.

That probably illustrates what I mean by forest level vs trees. Some will not recognize the distinction and will still believe Replacement/Fulfillment/Supersessionism are all the same.

Its kind of like, as an Orthodox Christian, I use icons/images in worship. No matter how often I tell my Protestant friends I am not worshiping an image, but I am rather venerating it. They will still think I am worshipping it.

A distinction without a difference some would say. That can apply to Replacment/Fulfillment/Supersessionism.

Whichever name it is given one result of it is clear.

Those who believe it in some form do not view the state of Israel as inheritors of God's promise and usually those that I encounter who reject the theology do assign the state of Israel as inheritors of God's promises.

Indeed. In our liturgy, we sing the Song of Simeon every Sunday after communion. One of the lines is, "The glory of your people your chosen Israel." It makes me cringe a touch every time because Israel and the church are not the same, but indeed, like the Israelites, we are called to be separated from the world and chosen by God.

 

[DadSmith]

It will be hard to answer that in a brief post, so if you want more, I will dig into the library for you. Also I am taking the wife into the hospital for a planned procedure so the usual I read my post many times before replying won't be happening so forgive.

That said one tell I have observed is in Replacement theology there is a tendency to call the Church the "New Israel" as if there is an "Old Israel" which would be the Jewish faith.

Fulfillment theology expands the promises to Israel to the Church and there is a tendency to make the claim that the Church is the faithful remnant of Israel.

Historically how we view the early Church can make the decision also.

This occurs, in my view, because there is a failure to understand that the Church was orginally Jewish to begin with. For example the earliest Christians did not call themselves Christians. They were given that label by others. The earliest Christians did not view themselves as Christians per se but as Jews who recognized Christ as the Messiah. They still went to synagogues and worshipped as Jews with that key exception. It was the Jews who drove the Jews/Christians out of their fellowship. So these Jews/Christians become the faithful remnant of Israel and thus represent the continuation of Israel. Not a New Israel. So I would think of myself more as a fulfillment Theology than a replacement theology.

That probably illustrates what I mean by forest level vs trees. Some will not recognize the distinction and will still believe Replacement/Fulfillment/Supersessionism are all the same.

Its kind of like, as an Orthodox Christian, I use icons/images in worship. No matter how often I tell my Protestant friends I am not worshiping an image, but I am rather venerating it. They will still think I am worshipping it.

A distinction without a difference some would say. That can apply to Replacment/Fulfillment/Supersessionism.

Whichever name it is given one result of it is clear.

Those who believe it in some form do not view the state of Israel as inheritors of God's promise and usually those that I encounter who reject the theology do assign the state of Israel as inheritors of God's promises.

The people I ran across belive that Israel has been replaced by the church, yet Paul and prophecy off the top of my head says very much differently Romans chapter 11 for one instance.

 

[foszoe]

The people I ran across belive that Israel has been replaced by the church, yet Paul and prophecy off the top of my head says very much differently Romans chapter 11 for one instance.

Yes. How prophecy is interpreted or understood has a lot to do with the theological understanding of what is Church.