Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[INP8riot]

Prayers for this man. Shot into the left temple, bullet still in brain. Critical condition since Nov. 15th. He was a combat medic and currently a Pentecostal pastor in AZ. Reports some people were yelling and cussing at him before the shooting. No suspects. His name is Hans Schmidt.
Matthew 10....14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. View attachment 313271

Dang! I just moved from AZ 2 years ago. It was getting rough! Seems its getting worse!

 

[45sRfun]

I am not sure what this shows or how to respond. It is a book written by a modern day scholar.

My position is that the Church, in council, decided the canon in the first few centuries. For a book to be published in the last 50 years that shows an internal consistency would, to me, simply support the Church made the correct decision, at least for the NT. The Bible itself does not list what Books belong in the Bible, or that when the NT refers to scriptures, it is referring to the OT. For example, when the Bereans searched the scriptures, they didn't have a NT.

The church very well may have, post 70 AD, made a determination on which books constitute the New Testament cannon. However, in all likelihood, the Apostles already had determined cannon. It did not take any special powers of men in a supposed apostolic succession to ensure we have the correct cannon. Just like the author of the book I referenced had no special powers, but did a lot of research and analysis of the original texts to show the internal consistency of the 66 books and that such consistency does not extend to the extra-biblical books.

It would be interesting to see the analysis that the church in council used to determine the cannon, or should I say to ensure the cannon only has the inspired books and no others. Good thing it was not Martin Luther or he might have thrown out the Book of James.

 

[45sRfun]

Every Christian who is serious about early church history and doctrine owes it to themselves to read this book. Don't let the word Catholic mislead you. Its not written by a Roman Catholic but a Lutheran scholar. He is using catholic as in universal.

Amazon product ASIN 0226653714
It is a clear and concise history of doctrine and it covers all the early heresies and resolutions.

I can't recommend it highly enough. It is highly footnoted if someone wants to go to original sources and full of scripture references. Buy the paperback and make it easier to use the extensive footnotes, bibliography, and scripture references. Any Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant of any stripe that is serious about understanding doctrine should read that book. Even if one disagrees with a doctrine, they will know why the doctrine itself exists.

I would force every one in this forum to read it if I could

The book is not showing for me. I was Lutheran for about 35 years so may have read it already.

 

[2A_Tom]

The Bible itself does not list what Books belong in the Bible,

Why, yes, yes it does. Right there on the index page, duh!

You do know that was tongue in cheek, right?

Right?

 

[indiucky]

Went with a group of friends from church to see "Journey To Bethlehem" last night.

I enjoyed it. It's a musical and I like musicals. I'm a fan of the underlying story, but get your account from the Word and enjoy this for what it is- inspired by true events, but not an accurate account of them.



No spoilers, but I am hoping that before I die, some depiction of the birth of Christ takes a swing at getting the wise men close to matching the Bible. There is a lot of latitude there as not much is known, but even given that, film makers don't seem interested. The single biblical account of the Magi in Matthew 2 simply presents an event at an unspecified point after Christ's birth in which an unnumbered party of unnamed "wise men" visits him in a house, not a stable. The text specifies no interval between the birth and the visit, but tradition claims between 12 days and 2 years after Christ’s birth. It is impossible to tell. But clearly not at the stable (my parents always set up the stable near the fireplace and the wise men across the room on the TV to drive the point home). As nutty as he is, maybe we need Mel Gibson to make a Nativity movie with original languages and everything....but it wouldn't be a musical.

IMHO the Magi and the Persians were the NASA of the middle east.....I've heard it pontificated that they were the heirs to Daniel's old gig and that he had left instructions for those that came after to be tasked with bringing gifts he had put aside to be given to the Messiah upon His birth.....I tend to follow the "Christ comet" theory on the Star of Bethlehem and I believe when that comet appeared they followed it's path and, per the Oxford astronomy union, coming from the east, said comet would appear to be nose diving into Bethlehem......

Sort of like a heavenly "See Rock City" sign painted on the ceiling of the heavens.....

 

[foszoe]

Not sure if y'all are blessed to have a militant atheist for a family member but I got asked a doozy last night and was wondering if y'all ever got this question or pondered it.

Brief background. We have talked several times over the years and there is always a gotcha waiting on the conversation so he knows me well enough to know how I approach scripture. Y'all kinda do but I have a pretty methodical way of looking at it.

1. Where in the lectionary/church year is it read?
2.What does Christ tell me about this scripture?
3. What does this scripture tell me about Christ?
4. What did the ancient commentators write/believe?
5. Historical/literal sense is the least important knowledge to be gleaned from a text.


Y'all may over the years have figured most of that out already, now I will let you in on some Orthodox secrets. Don't get sidetracked by my background info, wait for my question!

We have talked recently about the canon of scripture, but, because we are Church based Christians, not book based, I will make a couple of bold statements.

What canon you use, does not make you a Christian. Even in the 4th century, there were 2 canons in use. The most famous preacher in Church history, St John Chrysostom, and the Antiochian school used a 22 book NT canon, not recognizing 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude, or Revelation as Scripture. In his sermons he quotes NT 11000 times and never once quotes from those books.

Orthodox accept the Septuagint OT not the Masoretic text.

In the Orthodox churches, there are some that have more OT books than others and I believe there is one, Ethiopian, that has 1 additional NT book, but on that I am not certain. They are stil Orthodox.

So as you can tell, apparent scriptural contradictions don't really bother me too much. As Chrysostom said, the Bible is God speaking in baby talk so we can understand Him using human language and human constructs. There is no possibility that the human can contain the divine, yet since it is Advent, Mary did so that is a great mystery!

Now after my brief background here is the question. His question almost always sound like they come from a History channel special on the Bible Hopefully you will see his gotcha from my "brief" background.

Jude 6. Angels in chains reference. Most commentators see this as a reference to Gen 6, angels, giants, nephilim, angels having sex with women. Jude also seems to be referencing the Jewish apochryphal book of Enoch. It is where incubus and sucubus demons come into the picture.

However, Christ refers to us in heaven being like angels who are usually seen as spiritual beings, referred to in a masculine sense. The 3 named angels, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael (Septuagint only).

How can angels, whom the Church says are bodiless powers, have sexual relations in the OT which seems to be referred to by Jude in the NT be understood in the words of Christ?

I am sure you can puzzle out the gotcha trap he is laying. He knows I will go to Christ first which he will claim introduces a literal contradiction, which he also knows I don't usually worry about because I do not believe the bible is a scientific textbook and which certainly won't give me a Bart Erman moment, but I do admit its an interesting enough question to think about, at least for me because it is not in the usual Creation/Evolution, Was there a historical Jesus, or other typical gotcha he lays out for me.

 

[chipbennett]

Those sorts of questions, at least as I have gotten older, fall squarely within "pearls before swine". The question makes absolutely zero difference to doctrinal questions or matters essential to salvation, and are asked not from a sincere desire to believe/understand, but to be, as you say, a "gotcha".

Okay, you got me: I can't fully understand/articulate all matters of a spiritual nature as referenced in the Bible. Good job. Got anything of significance/importance to ask me?

 

[45sRfun]

Was many years and no matter how much I studied it I could never understand it. After much prayer and Bible study and history searching all the way back to 80 AD I no longer believe or follow that doctrine. I’m now called a heretic going to hell. I do not call trinity believers heritics, so it’s sad. But I thank God always for the truth when I asked. I’m a saved sinner that all I want to be called. I believe God the father is an invisible Spirit, that manifested himself in the flesh to die on a cross because as spirit he had no blood to shed. And the Holy Ghost isn’t a 3rd person or god. But the manifested spirit of Christ in us, Jesus said I send the comforter, “I will come to you”. And who is the Christ? He is the Lord, and who is the Lord? Psalms, “Know ye not that the Lord, he is God?” The Bible is easier for me to understand than man trying to figure out if there are 3 persons or 3 gods. When trinatarians hear I don’t believe in trinity they jump to condemn me, if they let me explain they aren’t so quick to judge, even if they don’t understand. “What shall you liken me to, or whom shall be my equal?” Some choose a trinity theology, I have seen errors in it, and do not anymore.

Nobody understands it, but maybe that it was named the Trinity is an impediment that leads people to reject it. Seems that when terms not found in the Bible are used, it creates problems, such as the misunderstanding that can come from the term, Original Sin."

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Those sorts of questions, at least as I have gotten older, fall squarely within "pearls before swine". The question makes absolutely zero difference to doctrinal questions or matters essential to salvation, and are asked not from a sincere desire to believe/understand, but to be, as you say, a "gotcha".

Okay, you got me: I can't fully understand/articulate all matters of a spiritual nature as referenced in the Bible. Good job. Got anything of significance/importance to ask me?

The irony is, most people of that ilk trust “the science” implicitly even though it is constantly evolving and is not fully known by any stretch of the imagination. All while being quick to judge Christianity for the most minute forms of contradictions they can find.

 

[2A_Tom]

All day, every day. 24/7/365.256

2 Samuel 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and I will sing praises unto thy name. 1 Chronicles 16:8 Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people. 1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever. 1 Chronicles 16:35 And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise. Psalms 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name. Psalms 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. Psalms 30:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever. Psalms 75:1 Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare. Psalms 79:13 So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all generations. Psalms 92:1 It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High: Psalms 97:12 Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. Psalms 105:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. Psalms 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 118:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 118:29 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 119:62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments. Psalms 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 136:26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence. Mark 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 1 Corinthians 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

 

[chipbennett]

The irony is, most people of that ilk trust “the science” implicitly even though it is constantly evolving and is not fully known by any stretch of the imagination. All while being quick to judge Christianity for the most minute forms of contradictions they can find.

The Bible is a rich, beautiful blend of history, poetry, allegory, and symbolism. It points to a Creator who exists beyond our physical context and the full understanding of whom is beyond our ken. There are many parts of the Bible that are intended as historical record that we cannot fully grasp. There are many parts, especially in Genesis, Job, Revelation, and similar books, that are written as allegorical and symbolic. Many intelligent people have debated and will continue to debate which specific parts of the Bible fall into which category.

None of it matters for our salvation, beyond understanding that Jesus was a literal, historical person, who was God on earth in human form, lived a sinless life, died to atone for the sins of all mankind, and who conquered sin and death through his death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[chipbennett]

All day, every day. 24/7/365.256

2 Samuel 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and I will sing praises unto thy name. 1 Chronicles 16:8 Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people. 1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever. 1 Chronicles 16:35 And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise. Psalms 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name. Psalms 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. Psalms 30:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever. Psalms 75:1 Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare. Psalms 79:13 So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all generations. Psalms 92:1 It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High: Psalms 97:12 Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. Psalms 105:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. Psalms 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 118:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 118:29 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 119:62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments. Psalms 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 136:26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence. Mark 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 1 Corinthians 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

And especially today. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[foszoe]

Spent Tuesday morning in Church for the feast day.

Went here Tuesday after Church and then again yesterday afternoon.

Holy Cross Monastery - An Orthodox Men's Community in Wayne, WV

an Orthodox men's community of ROCOR in Wayne, WV, maker of Athonite incense, dedicated to the Exaltation of the Cross, under the patronage of St. Panteleimon.

www.holycross.org

Met Father Isaac in the gift shop for a wonderful conversation. He went to IU in Bloomington for 8 years. Met some non Orthodox who were visiting then helped out a lost deer hunter.

Orthodox are like Moto Guzzi riders small enough that when you talk to one you will eventually find out you know someone in common. I knew people from the Bloomington and he knew some from Lafayette.

Today is for family. Tomorrow some shopping. Another feast day in Church on Saturday and worship on Sunday in Church.

I am thankful to have this week off to participate in the body of Christ and meet its members.

Today I get to visit with my uncle who is now the pastor of the church I grew up in. He took me on my first deer hunt. Took me trout fishing up in the mountains. Taught me how to reload.

I get to touch base with my cousins who I helped with budgeting and is now at the point where they are out of debt and ready to begin investing.

Oh and my faithful dog will visit the house where I spent most of my childhood.

Looking forward to a blessed Thanksgiving where each moment I will be able to silently say a word of thanks to God for family, friend, dog, and the glory of His creation.

Thanks to all of you for allowing me to commune with you here as we journey towards the Great Thanksgiving where we can all meet and greet around the grandest feast of all!

 

[foszoe]

The Bible is a rich, beautiful blend of history, poetry, allegory, and symbolism.

None of it matters for our salvation

Would that you could stop right there really.

John Chrysostom, in his first Homily on Matthew.

It were indeed meet for us not at all to require the aid of the written Word, but to exhibit a life so pure, that the grace of the Spirit should be instead of books to our souls, and that as these are inscribed with ink, even so should our hearts be with the Spirit. But, since we have utterly put away from us this grace, come, let us at any rate embrace the second best course.
For that the former was better, God hath made manifest, both by His words, and by His doings. Since unto Noah, and unto Abraham, and unto his offspring, and unto Job, and unto Moses too, He discoursed not by writings, but Himself by Himself, finding their mind pure. But after the whole people of the Hebrews had fallen into the very pit of wickedness, then and thereafter was a written word, and tables, and the admonition which is given by these.

 

[foszoe]

Those sorts of questions, at least as I have gotten older, fall squarely within "pearls before swine". The question makes absolutely zero difference to doctrinal questions or matters essential to salvation, and are asked not from a sincere desire to believe/understand, but to be, as you say, a "gotcha".

Okay, you got me: I can't fully understand/articulate all matters of a spiritual nature as referenced in the Bible. Good job. Got anything of significance/importance to ask me?

In our Liturgy after the first 3 hymns, the epistle/gospel readings, and the preaching, there is a line that says "Let all catechumens depart, let no catechumens remain.

Historically, anyone who was not Christian was kicked out, literally. Then there appears a line "the doors, the doors, let us attend" and the doors were barred and guarded for the recitation of the Creed and the Communion.

This is mostly still said but seldom enforced anymore. In the age of TV, Youtube service broadcassts, service books on the internet etc, the cat is definitely out of the bag anyway.

At one church though when I was travelling and didn't know anyone, before I became Orthodox, I stepped out to go to the restroom. When I came back the Creed was being recited and when I tried to open the door, a man held it shut. I literally grabbed it with both hands and yanked it out of his grasp. I didn't know about that line and that church took it literally. I thought someone was just messing with me.

Anyway, I agree with your sentiment. Our discussions are cordial and simple. He also knows I am a simple guy and state things simply and believe simply. My theology is everyday experience as lived in the Church. They tend to want an empirical discussion so many of the usual gotchas he does with others don't really apply to me anyway.

He is my brother in law and along with another brother in law, they do some things that I can tell hurt my mother in law. The family is devout Catholic and these two will be irreverent during prayer before meals and if a conversation is had concerning faith that doesn't involve them, they will interject themselves into the conversation. It was a practice that I simply observed when I became part of the family, but over time, I would engage them and casually take the burden off their mother and usually move them to another part of the house or outside or something. Because of my unique path, I know more about Catholicism than some Catholics, more about Orthodoxy than most and I gave them a new "target". Besides, they can't hurt my feelings but they could hurt their mother with their words.

 

[smokingman]

Biden Officially Attempts to Remove God from Thanksgiving with 2023 Proclamation

Biden is the first president to delete God from his Thanksgiving proclamation altogether putting the final nail in it's faith-based history.

www.westernjournal.com

A first since it became an official holiday in 1789.

 

[foszoe]

Biden Officially Attempts to Remove God from Thanksgiving with 2023 Proclamation

Biden is the first president to delete God from his Thanksgiving proclamation altogether putting the final nail in it's faith-based history.

www.westernjournal.com

A first since it became an official holiday in 1789.

Well it does end with the phrase "year of our Lord". A clear reference to our Judeo-Christian heritage. Not mentioning God gets a pass from me. It can be understood.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Well it does end with the phrase "year of our Lord". A clear reference to our Judeo-Christian heritage. Not mentioning God gets a pass from me. It can be understood.

Being just “religousy” enough for religious people to see the inference between the lines but devoid enough for the “nones” to not be offended.

We are a post-Christian nation.

 

[foszoe]

Being just “religousy” enough for religious people to see the inference between the lines but devoid enough for the “nones” to not be offended.

We are a post-Christian nation.

When was the last time we read a Presidential Proclamation on Thanksgiving? I haven't in years and can't honestly say I ever have, so I am not going to be any more surprised that he left God out of one than that God was in all the others.

I know its a minority posiiton, but I don't believe in Christian nations, i believe in Christian people. A "nation" can only be as Christlike as its people, so I hold the view if you want a "Christian" nation, get busy "making" Christians. Having a "Christian" nation just results in religious persecution, despite the best intentions. That's the real history of "Christian" nations. Laws do not make the Christian. A relationship with Christ will.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

When was the last time we read a Presidential Proclamation on Thanksgiving? I haven't in years and can't honestly say I ever have, so I am not going to be any more surprised that he left God out of one than that God was in all the others.

I know its a minority posiiton, but I don't believe in Christian nations, i believe in Christian people. A "nation" can only be as Christlike as its people, so I hold the view if you want a "Christian" nation, get busy "making" Christians. Having a "Christian" nation just results in religious persecution, despite the best intentions. That's the real history of "Christian" nations. Laws do not make the Christian. A relationship with Christ will.

Of course. The leadership we used to elect would invoke God and nominate days of prayer, for repentance, etc. so that we would be on God’s side. We don’t elect those people anymore. That (in brief) is what I mean by we are a post-Christian nation.