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  • foszoe

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    The question is,

    Do you do this inorder to obtain favor and eternal life? (Works salvation)

    Or.

    Do you do the works out of gratitude for the Salvation he has freely given. (Faith)

    To answer your question really depends on how it is understood.


    If the first statement is a quid pro quo understanding.

    IF I do this God MUST do that. Or IF I do all these things THEN Jesus will save me. Then the statement is false.

    If, however, one asks if I feed the hungry, give drink to the thristy, clothed the naked, visited the sick, sheltered the stranger, ministered to those in prison in order to obtain salvation then I can answer yes and I would base my answer on the words of Christ regarding the judgment The witness of the Psalms, Proverbs, the Prophets, and the New Testament is that on the day of judgment we stand according to our works. What is written in the Book of Life, the Book of Judgment, what is written is what we have done, not what we have claimed, not what we have verbally or mentally affirmed, not what we have said, but what we have done, this activity.

    So how to understand this? We must do all out of love. Sometimes love IS work.

    The judgment, then, is on how we treat people. The judgment ultimately is love. Did we love our neighbor, our enemy? Did we love our fellow human beings? That’s it. That is it, because the commandment of God, the great and holy commandment, the Sh’ma Israel, is that you will love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength. That’s how it’s quoted in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, there’s no “mind,” because in Hebrew, “heart” and “mind” were the same thing, but in the New Testament, written in Greek, they add specifically “mind.” That means, of course, that we are to love God with everything we think, with everything that we desire, with everything that we know. With all our soul it means all our behavior, our life, our activity. Then with all our strength, meaning all the power that you have: your property, your money, your clout in society, whatever kind of power you have, particularly money, property. We have to love God with all those things: mind, soul, heart, and strength.

    And then the second great commandment that goes with it from the Levitical code is that we are to love our neighbor as being our very own self. In other words, we find ourselves in our neighbor.

    So the love of God is proved by the love of the neighbor, and this is said explicitly in I John, when he says how can we say we love God whom we do not see if we do not love the person next to us whom we do see. Anyone who claims that they love God and does not love the person next to them, according to St. John is just a liar. Just a liar. So the love has to be expressed to the human being. That’s where we show our love for God.

    The same St. John, in his first letter, also said, “Let us love not in speech or in word, but in deed, in work, and in truth,” because the only way we can show that we are lovers is by how we act, how we behave. St. James says in the Scripture that that’s the only way we can prove we are believers. He said, “Show me your faith without your work.” You can’t do it. Faith without works is dead. The devil believes in God, but he does no works and therefore he shudders, the Apostle James says. So we have to act. We have to work.

    Love has to be expressed in concrete, specific acts, and that is what the judgment is based on. However—and this is a very good case study to prove that you cannot isolate any texts of Scripture from the whole of Scripture; any texts must be read in the light of the whole scope of the entire Scripture—here when we think about this parable of the judgment, we have to know that those acts which express love, which are absolutely necessary—feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, taking in the stranger, the homeless, visiting the sick and the imprisoned—those are acts that must express love. When they are done without love, they profit us nothing, as the Apostle Paul said, and they are nothing.

    So we have to read Matthew 25 in the light of I Corinthians 13, where the Apostle Paul says not only, “If I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have all faith to move mountains and have knowledge of all the mysteries and have not love, I am nothing and it profits me nothing,” but he also says, “If I give everything I have to the poor, if I even give my body to be burned, and I’m not doing it out of love, then it profits me nothing.” And this is very frightening, because it is possible to feed the hungry and give drink to the thirsty and clothe the naked and shelter the homeless and visit the sick and the imprisoned without really having love for them.

    St. John Climacus, of the Ladder, he said, “Why is it that some people who do so many beautiful, righteous acts when they are healthy—they visit sick people and they help homeless people—but once they get sick and they can’t do it any more, they turn into monsters.” They’re cranky, they’re bitter, they’re judgmental. He says, “Why is it?” Or why is it that a person who may be very virtuous in the world will enter a monastery and turn into a total terror? He said, “The reason is because the righteous activity while we were living among our fellows, incapable of working with them”—these are his words—“was irrigated by the putrid sewage of vainglory, of vanity.”

    St. Cyprian of Carthage went so far to say we could even die as a martyr for Christ and not be saved because we can do that out of arrogance and vanity and pride and judgment of others. He said if a person dies a martyr out of self-will, not because he’s caught and persecuted, he violates the commandment and simply ends up in hell. So it’s very terrifying to think.

    So yes, we can do things to obtain salvation but they must be done out of love not to obtain a reward. For by doing out of love we become like Christ, which is after all the goal of salvation. The goal is to be transformed into Someone not a goal to be spared from something.

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And pbefore him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall qseparate them one from another, as a shepherd qdivideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep son his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto uthem on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom yprepared for you zfrom the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye ctook me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye evisited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And tthe King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not ominister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, pInasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into qeverlasting punishment: but the righteous into qrlife eternal.

    The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    So yes, we can do things to obtain salvation but they must be done out of love not to obtain a reward.

    I mean…..it literally says the opposite…..

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
    ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
     

    foszoe

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    I mean…..it literally says the opposite…..

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
    ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    Not really.

    The word alone does not appear in Ephesians nor in any other scripture. It only appears in doctrines invented in the Reformation. I can quote lots of scriptures that say how one is saved, as I am sure you can.

    It can appear to say that if one ignores all other scriptures.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    Not really.

    The word alone does not appear in Ephesians nor in any other scripture. It only appears in doctrines invented in the Reformation. I can quote lots of scriptures that say how one is saved, as I am sure you can.

    It can appear to say that if one ignores all other scriptures.

    Yeah we’re at a pretty clear impasse.

    I think scripture is clear.

    You think scripture is clear.

    Totally opposite answers. :dunno:
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    Is this a semantics problem?

    Does salvation and sanctification mean the same thing in orthodox theology?

    Salvation is the gift of God through faith in Christ.

    Sanctification is process of your life being “set apart” through the continual work of the Holy Spirit.
     

    foszoe

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    Yeah we’re at a pretty clear impasse.

    I think scripture is clear.

    You think scripture is clear.

    Totally opposite answers. :dunno:
    Yes. I agree with you.

    That impasse is what led me into the wilderness for awhile and ultimately led me to become Orthodox because I believe the Church to be the decider when you and I reach an impasse.

    I realize you will feel differently.
     

    foszoe

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    Is this a semantics problem?

    Does salvation and sanctification mean the same thing in orthodox theology?

    Salvation is the gift of God through faith in Christ.

    Sanctification is process of your life being “set apart” through the continual work of the Holy Spirit.
    Those are very good points. Orthodox theology would use the terms Theosis and Deification. There are differences in the approach. I may post more later, but there is no real separation between saved and santified as found in western traditions.
     

    foszoe

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    Gotcha. That makes more sense.
    To really understand Orthodox soteriology, it would start with the term Theosis and the understanding of the essence and energies of God.

    I had an article I enjoyed that was written from a western perspective that might make it easier to understand and also keep me from writing a tome :)

    I read through it awhile back and thought it was a fair article written about Orthodoxy from a Protestant and published in The Gospel Coalition magazine which is a reformed/evangelical organization.

    I have some disagreement with it on wording of course. I prefer mysteries to sacraments for what I believe are good reasons for example. I should also point out I obviously disagree with some of the author's conclusions but that should be obvious.


    I also found one written by an Orthodox that I actually thought was trying too hard to be the same just to show I do look for agreement whenever possible :)


    I am always willing to answer any questions on them or anything I have posted, but these 2 articles may save me the time and be more understandable. At the very least, perhaps they would keep us from talking past one another.
     
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    DadSmith

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    Those are very good points. Orthodox theology would use the terms Theosis and Deification. There are differences in the approach. I may post more later, but there is no real separation between saved and santified as found in western traditions.
    John Wesley believed that once a person was saved they then are sanctified or set apart to live a God pleasing life.
    He also believed in what he termed entire sanctification and if I understand his teachings correctly this means a person has grown in the perfect love of God as humanly possible.
    He also believed we as humans are not perfect in our corruptible bodies, and will make mistakes.
    Not necessarily knowingly sin because we love God to much to displease him that way, but as humans we are not all knowing, or perfect in speech, etc etc and will at times do things we ought not, and when the Holy Spirit brings the light to that we ask forgiveness and learn not to do that again, and press on to be as perfect in God's eyes as we can in this body.
     

    INP8riot

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    I mean…..it literally says the opposite…..

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
    ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    I might add some to this. If I were to give someone, free of charge, the highest value thing you can think of (painting, diamond, etc) knowing full well that person could never pay for it. All I asked in return was their friendship (belief in Jesus). Then they repeatedly tried to do things for me (cut my grass, rake my leaves, etc) to pay for it. Obviously, no matter what they did, it would not pay for it. But in their mind they thought they actually WERE paying for it. It would be an insult to me. NOTHING they could do for me would pay for it and it would be useless to try. But their pride won't allow them to accept that gift.

    I imagine that's how Jesus could feel when people think anything they do other than believe, will repay his sacrifice. All he asks is for you to believe in him.

    If one wants to do works to make themselves feel better, that's great! But the price of admission is far greater than one can afford on their own.

    Quite a doosie for my first post!
     

    foszoe

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    John Wesley believed that once a person was saved they then are sanctified or set apart to live a God pleasing life.
    He also believed in what he termed entire sanctification and if I understand his teachings correctly this means a person has grown in the perfect love of God as humanly possible.
    He also believed we as humans are not perfect in our corruptible bodies, and will make mistakes.
    Not necessarily knowingly sin because we love God to much to displease him that way, but as humans we are not all knowing, or perfect in speech, etc etc and will at times do things we ought not, and when the Holy Spirit brings the light to that we ask forgiveness and learn not to do that again, and press on to be as perfect in God's eyes as we can in this body.
    Some Wesleyans believe sanctification to be a crisis experience, similar to getting saved.

    Have you ever read any of Dale Yocum's books? I would highly recommend Dale Yocum's book, "The Holy Way" to you. It looks like it may be hard to find as I tried to find a link. It is one of the best books on Sanctification.

    There are some sermons of his on youtube also that I think you would enjoy.

    Another book of his, "Ask the Animals" is also a very good read.
     

    DadSmith

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    Some Wesleyans believe sanctification to be a crisis experience, similar to getting saved.

    Have you ever read any of Dale Yocum's books? I would highly recommend Dale Yocum's book, "The Holy Way" to you. It looks like it may be hard to find as I tried to find a link. It is one of the best books on Sanctification.

    There are some sermons of his on youtube also that I think you would enjoy.

    Another book of his, "Ask the Animals" is also a very good read.

    Sold out .
     

    foszoe

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    I am looking around too. :) See if I can find one somewhere. He was a great man, a great preacher.
    Finding some good quotes.

    “If we are truly to hunger and thirst after righteousness, we must have a vision of the darkness of sin.”

    “If one is to possess the righteousness of Christ, he must have such desire of heart that he is willing to surrender every lesser treasure for this supreme one. No casual or passing interest will suffice!”

    1700278000919.png
     

    DadSmith

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    foszoe

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    Didn't he die in the early 1900's
    I was reading his bio last night. I think it was 1987, not certain.

    Here is a link to his bio.

     

    DragonGunner

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    Prayers for this man. Shot into the left temple, bullet still in brain. Critical condition since Nov. 15th. He was a combat medic and currently a Pentecostal pastor in AZ. Reports some people were yelling and cussing at him before the shooting. No suspects. His name is Hans Schmidt.
    Matthew 10....14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. fullsizeoutput_840.jpeg
     
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