CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[Benp]

ATM vs ATM

Get ready to rrruuummmble!

Well I was ready, but it's a stand off!

 

[ATM]

ATM vs ATM

Get ready to rrruuummmble!

You have no idea how accurate that has been. Nearly finished.

 

[Lelliott8]

Cute move to bring in some garbage about the 1A and how beliefs must be respected, just when it seemed like our point might finally get some attention. There are some very deceived people among us, even here on INGO. Who's to blame for this?

 

[Think]

My refutation, in pithy form:

1. Jesus was not a prophet of God. He was as he claimed to be - God incarnate.
2. In that passage Jesus speaks as if he's separate from God, because, yes he is an individual, yet still God (see John 14).
3. Jesus makes very specific statements regarding the exclusively of his salvation (again see John 14).
4. Jesus makes it clear that the work of salvation is complete in him, therefore no one can come after him and promote a new path (again... John 14, John 19)
5. You haven't made a compelling case for why Mohamed should be considered a Prophet of God. Your only statement was, "Mohamed was known to be an honest man, therefore he must be who he said he was."

Question for you:
If Mohamed was a Prophet of God, and so was Jesus, and their message is the same at it's core, do you consider Joseph Smith on par with them? If not, why? What would disqualify his prophecy?

JettaKnight,

Both Muslims and Christians believe that Jesus was a great Prophet of God and the Messiah, however Christians claim that he is a person of the Triune God while Muslims reject the notion that any human can be worshiped as God.
Msulims believe that God created us and He has the exclusive right to be worshiped. This message was preached by all Prophets of God.



It's known too that Muslims believe, according to Quran, that Prophet Muhammad is the final Prophet of God. However, they believe in the second coming of Prophet Jesus.

 

[ATM]

Cute move to bring in some garbage about the 1A and how beliefs must be respected, just when it seemed like our point might finally get some attention. There are some very deceived people among us, even here on INGO. Who's to blame for this?

Good question, maybe "modern educayshun" has been slowly and incrementally steering us in this direction for far longer than we realized.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break-room/437821-modern-educayshun.html

Attacking those who would dare to question seems to serve one fundamental purpose to me, and its application is quite broad.

 

[jamil]

Cute move to bring in some garbage about the 1A and how beliefs must be respected, just when it seemed like our point might finally get some attention. There are some very deceived people among us, even here on INGO. Who's to blame for this?

I don't necessarily respect beliefs, per se. I respect an individual's right to believe whatever they want. That should not shield their beliefs from scrutiny, but that in itself does not obviate one's responsibility to behave civilly while challenging people's beliefs.

The point about deceit is just opinion. Before you level such claims with confidence you might consider that the other side has every bit as much faith as you to call you decieved.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Good question, maybe "modern educayshun" has been slowly and incrementally steering us in this direction for far longer than we realized.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break-room/437821-modern-educayshun.html

Attacking those who would dare to question seems to serve one fundamental purpose to me, and its application is quite broad.

Modern education has its roots in John Dewey and Horace Mann falling in love with the Prussian public school system. In a monarchy it was far easier to fashion a system on education shamelessly crafted to produce useful idiots, usurp the role of parents, and discourage critical thought. In a free republic, it took the better part of a century for the seed of the poison fruit to yield harvest, but we are now harvesting.

I don't necessarily respect beliefs, per se. I respect an individual's right to believe whatever they want. That should not shield their beliefs from scrutiny, but that in itself does not obviate one's responsibility to behave civilly while challenging people's beliefs.

The point about deceit is just opinion. Before you level such claims with confidence you might consider that the other side has every bit as much faith as you to call you decieved.

I would point out that, using the First Amendment, you can distill those enumerated rights such that they all necessarily rest on the freedom of thought, which ultimately defaults to the 'right to be wrong' (your mileage may vary regarding what is 'wrong').

 

[gregr]

JettaKnight,

Both Muslims and Christians believe that Jesus was a great Prophet of God and the Messiah, however Christians claim that he is a person of the Triune God while Muslims reject the notion that any human can be worshiped as God.
Msulims believe that God created us and He has the exclusive right to be worshiped. This message was preached by all Prophets of God.

View attachment 56268

It's known too that Muslims believe, according to Quran, that Prophet Muhammad is the final Prophet of God. However, they believe in the second coming of Prophet Jesus.

If you`re suggesting for a nanosecond that Christians worship the same God, you`re dead wrong.

 

[IndyDave1776]

JettaKnight,

Both Muslims and Christians believe that Jesus was a great Prophet of God and the Messiah, however Christians claim that he is a person of the Triune God while Muslims reject the notion that any human can be worshiped as God.
Msulims believe that God created us and He has the exclusive right to be worshiped. This message was preached by all Prophets of God.

View attachment 56268

It's known too that Muslims believe, according to Quran, that Prophet Muhammad is the final Prophet of God. However, they believe in the second coming of Prophet Jesus.

That typographical error brings a humorous moment to my recollection. I has transposed some letters typing 'Moslem' and as I preferred to think of it, I invented my own new camouflage: 'Mossy Elm'.

 

[gregr]

That typographical error brings a humorous moment to my recollection. I has transposed some letters typing 'Moslem' and as I preferred to think of it, I invented my own new camouflage: 'Mossy Elm'.

 

[PaulF]

If you`re suggesting for a nanosecond that Christians worship the same God, you`re dead wrong.

It is Islamic scripture that Allah is the God of Abraham.

Regardless what you think, they believe you are all worshipping the same deity.

 

[foszoe]

How does one "behave" civilly on a forum?

How does one "behave" civilly while challenging a person?

How does one "behave" civilly while challenging a person's beliefs?

civilly according to the dictionary is defined politely. This to me makes it an interpersonal word.

I am not required to behave politely towards a belief by any standard that I know of but as usual am willing to learn.

So, if civil is equivalent to polite then this can occur only between individuals and is therefore defined by the society, in this case the forum we post on is our society.

Now, I have posted on here that I did not want to discuss a certain matter any further, but I was subjected to several questions regarding the matter even if I didn't want to post on it anymore.

Were those people therefore acting in an uncivil or impolite matter towards me? I didn't really consider it so, it was more a matter of if I REALLY didn't want to say anything then it IS possible to let someone else have the last "word" by simply doing what one says and not discussing the matter any further.

Now that is exactly what BBI did and its an admirable trait to just walk away from a discussion which one does not wish to engage in and it is also admirable on the part of the questioner to not attribute any motive to the disengagement. I find myself doing this on occasion with non-Orthodox Christians because their eisegetical hermeneutics do not allow even consideration of another POV.

So what crosses the civility line in a forum exchange? Is it dependent upon the subject matter? Is it dependent on the person?

My answers, also subject to change based on further input.

Attacks on the person him/herself. Excessive repeated attempts to engage a person who has explicitly withdrawn from the conversation.
It shouldn't be.
It shouldn't be.

I don't necessarily respect beliefs, per se. I respect an individual's right to believe whatever they want. That should not shield their beliefs from scrutiny, but that in itself does not obviate one's responsibility to behave civilly while challenging people's beliefs.

The point about deceit is just opinion. Before you level such claims with confidence you might consider that the other side has every bit as much faith as you to call you decieved.

 

[foszoe]

I just simply ask people if they think God exists and if they answer yes then I know they are not worshipping the same God of Orthodox Christianity that I do.

It is Islamic scripture that Allah is the God of Abraham.

Regardless what you think, they believe you are all worshipping the same deity.

 

[Kutnupe14]

If you`re suggesting for a nanosecond that Christians worship the same God, you`re dead wrong.

it's the same God.

 

[PaulF]

...

So what crosses the civility line in a forum exchange? Is it dependent upon the subject matter? Is it dependent on the person?

My answers, also subject to change based on further input.

Attacks on the person him/herself. Excessive repeated attempts to engage a person who has explicitly withdrawn from the conversation.
It shouldn't be.
It shouldn't be.

I agree. A forum should be an open exchange of ideas. Sometimes an idea is worthy of attack or ridicule, at least from another perspective. It is appropriate to attack the flaws in a premise, or to ridicule a position. It isn't appropriate to attack the person presenting the position. There is value in exposing hypocrisy, less so in shaming hypocrites.

Don't make it personal.

 

[gregr]

it's the same God.

Absolutely not! Jesus said He and the Father are one! The Holy Bible states that there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved, (Jesus). Jesus Christ said: I an THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO man comes to the Father, but by ME. Jesus said to not only love your friends, but to love your enemies. the koran states that infidels, (unbelievers) are to be slaughtered if they refuse to convert. So no, it is not the same God.

 

[Benp]

Absolutely not! Jesus said He and the Father are one! The Holy Bible states that there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved, (Jesus). Jesus Christ said: I an THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO man comes to the Father, but by ME. Jesus said to not only love your friends, but to love your enemies. the koran states that infidels, (unbelievers) are to be slaughtered if they refuse to convert. So no, it is not the same God.

It is supposed to be the same God, but it's not

 

[Kutnupe14]

Absolutely not! Jesus said He and the Father are one! The Holy Bible states that there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved, (Jesus). Jesus Christ said: I an THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO man comes to the Father, but by ME. Jesus said to not only love your friends, but to love your enemies. the koran states that infidels, (unbelievers) are to be slaughtered if they refuse to convert. So no, it is not the same God.

So you also hold that Jews do not worship the same God?

 

[PaulF]

I just simply ask people if they think God exists and if they answer yes then I know they are not worshipping the same God of Orthodox Christianity that I do.

You worship the One True God, right? So do they.

Either the One True God exists, or it doesn't. If The One True God does exist, then you are both necessarily worshipping the same God. The difference becomes who, if anyone, is worshipping "correctly", and what are the consequences of those different disciplines of worship. In our time, there are literally thousands of different ways to approach the question of the One True God, their differences heavily linked to their parent cultures.

Each differing discipline necessarily insists it is the correct form of worship, most to the strict exclusion of other disciplines. Something that is true will be true for anyone that experiences it. If they are all worshipping the same God, why does every religious discipline come to such different conclusions when considering their deity? My answer, of course, is that the One True God is a product of human imagination...BUT, if the One True God really does exist I find it implausible that it will have much regard for our religious inclinations when determining its relationship with us.

 

[gunsisgood]

it's the same God.

Nope, as opposite as good and evil.