CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

Forgivness - so hard for man to wrap their arms around; yet so vital in so many ways; results that can change our eternity.

So, I walk into the confessional and share my sins to a man behind the screen. He tells me not to sin again and tells me to say 10 Our Fathers and 5 hail mary's. I leave the penalty box and go sit on the bench. I begin my random penalty and midway - I remember I will be late for my appointment. Run out of church thinking, "to be continued".

Are my sins forgiven? If so, at which point? If not, why? Do I need to finish my "works" to be forgiven? Is this one of those "church traditions" or is it biblical?

You aren't even really trying to understand, are you?

 

[Ziggidy]

You aren't even really trying to understand, are you?

Wanting to understand? No. Wanting to hear the answer? Yes.

I have a reason for asking. My stance (opinion) is stated in my first line. Like so many other topics, man has made difficult what God had made simple (though Jesus).

Now, I'll wait for the answer to my question if anyone would like to explain.

 

[breakingcontact]

Looks like I haven't missed much!

 

[JettaKnight]

Looks like I haven't missed much!

Nah, but it's good see you around here.

 

[T.Lex]

Wanting to understand? No. Wanting to hear the answer? Yes.

I will, as politely as I can muster, decline to indulge your mockery. You've misstated - both in practical and religious terms - the sacrament and have admitted no desire to understand.

Good luck to you.

 

[NKBJ]

No apology necessary - partly because I think I may borrow that analogy. In fact, I think it could prove useful here.

Think of a hot summer day and people lined up by the fire hose who want to cool off. The priest is holding the hose and willing to help make comfortable anyone who gets in line. In fact, they are obligated to do that. People are free to get in line or not, and can decide how much water they get.

As I recall, priests are allowed (in the RCC tradition) an evaluation of contrition. That is, if someone wants the sacrament of reconciliation, but is unrepentant, then it can be denied. I'm REALLY not sure how that would play out. People are faulty, and tend to be tempted by the same things over and over. That doesn't mean they lack contrition, that just means they are flawed.

Personally, I've never known something like that to happen.

I think it can also occur in a situation where someone refuses to do penance for the sins, because then their choices are preventing the efficacy of the sacrament. For instance, if someone confesses to murder, and the priest tells them to turn themselves in, but they refuse... that doesn't actually seem like repentance.


That has always interested me, too, along with other... let's say... "political" decisions made by the Church at various times.

Particularly with regard to symbology, I think there's 2 basic approaches that are kinda mutually exclusive (and I usually hate being arbitrarily binary):
- That Christianity co-opted the local symbology as a brazen marketing tactic to get more followers. Like ancient click bait.
- The Holy Spirit works in ways beyond our understanding, so the prior symbology may have been God's handiwork preparing for the arrival of the Christian message.

Now, to maintain consistency with my personal fondness for gray areas, any particular symbol or native habit may have been either of those. However, I tend to align more with the latter view.

Yeah, our Creator and the opposition were here before Calvary with people trying to wrap their brains around it all, hence the related symbols and formulae of worship invented through the ages. Not to go all Clinton on you but there's the third way which is the opposition being present but occulted (that is rather Clintonish now that I think about it), having never gone away. Years ago I started looking at the symbol of Saturn (very much as put on the brand of cars) and of the new horizon used in political and corporate logos, on church signs, etc. Finally decided that Obama's logo was actually a view of Titan (child of Saturn).

any how, it's just something of interest I recognize when it crops up.

 

[T.Lex]

...there's the third way which is the opposition being present but occulted....

Well, as I said, I'm predisposed against binary thinking, so I'm open to any other options.

To me, though, your third category is a variation of my second: God is powerful enough to co-opt the tools of evil and turn them to His use.

I'm totally ok with treating that as a 3rd option, though.

 

[Ziggidy]

I will, as politely as I can muster, decline to indulge your mockery. You've misstated - both in practical and religious terms - the sacrament and have admitted no desire to understand.

Good luck to you.

Ok.... so be it. I will say that I am not the only one who has thought that question.

Mockery? I have witnessed much of this mockery you spew out myself, along with others when you you seemingly do not like the question or statement......acting very much like the church leaders of Christ’s time.

“How dare this man question (you fill in the blank)!”

No, I am not trying to understand your confession “process”, but am trying to understand how you came of it.

Good day!




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[ArcadiaGP]

 

[Ziggidy]

 

[foszoe]

Ok.... so be it. I will say that I am not the only one who has thought that question.

Mockery? I have witnessed much of this mockery you spew out myself, along with others when you you seemingly do not like the question or statement......acting very much like the church leaders of Christ’s time.

“How dare this man question (you fill in the blank)!”

No, I am not trying to understand your confession “process”, but am trying to understand how you came of it.

Good day!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Being a Pentecostal, was this post the Holy Spirit talking? Sometimes it's hard to tell

 

[Ziggidy]

Being a Pentecostal, was this post the Holy Spirit talking? Sometimes it's hard to tell

Exactly my point.....

 

[Bartman]

I ran across this quote from C.S. Lewis.

“It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all, real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not. The table I am sitting at looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it is really made of - all about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and what they do to the optic nerve and what it does to my brain- and, of course, you find that what we call “seeing a table” lands you in mysteries and complications which you can hardly get to the end of. A child saying a child's prayer looks simple. And if you are content to stop there, well and good. But if you are not- and the modern world usually is not - if you want to go on and ask what is really happening - then you must be prepared for something difficult.”

One of the things that led to me accepting Christianity as truth is that it can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it, but it all arrives at the same place.

I met a man once who was developmentally disabled, what they used to call "slow.” I asked him “How are you doing?” He said “Great! I’m going to heaven!” I imagine his conception of God is a bit different than mine. But I don't doubt at all that he is, in fact, going to heaven.

 

[BugI02]

A question, if I may. When explaining confession, I've seen some RC sources point to Matthew 18:18 with regard to priests having apostolic authority. "...whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." God forgives, but if the priest is determining what is bound and what is loosed, isn't he making the decision on what is to be forgiven on God's behalf? Pardon the dumb analogy, but it makes it sound like God's forgiveness is water coming out of a fire hose and the priests are deciding where to point it.

Also, when Christ spoke thus to Simon Barjona "...and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." I have encountered nothing that leads me to believe that that power was his to pass on; neither to his descendants, his chosen successors nor the Rube-Goldbergian edifice the RCC sometimes seems to have become

Simon was anointed by the son of God, no other pope has even come close

 

[BugI02]

But allow me to add that I am grateful to the Roman Catholic Church for keeping Christianity, and indeed intellectual enlightenment, alive almost single-handedly through the dark ages. For me this results in the, shall we say, awkward fascination with things Catholic

 

[BugI02]

But allow me to add that I am grateful to the Roman Catholic Church for keeping Christianity, and indeed intellectual enlightenment, alive almost single-handedly through the dark ages. For me this results in the, shall we say, awkward fascination with things Catholic

ETA:Full disclosure: My dad, who died when I was thirteen, was a non-practicing Catholic. Ostensibly he had converted for love of my mom (although he never got over his longing, and was shriven and accepted back into the church before his death)

Trying to understand my dad is likely also at the heart of some of my curiosity about things Catholic

 

[BugI02]

Not sure how a simple attempt to edit post turned self-referential. D'oh!

 

[CampingJosh]

But allow me to add that I am grateful to the Roman Catholic Church for keeping Christianity, and indeed intellectual enlightenment, alive in Europe almost single-handedly through the dark ages. For me this results in the, shall we say, awkward fascination with things Catholic

FTFY

What has been called the Dark Age was really only such in the territory of the former Western Roman Empire. China was doing well. Western Asia (the Middle East) was doing well. This period was the height of the Mayans.

And through that time period, there wasn't really a Roman Catholic Church. We hadn't yet splintered to where such a name would have made sense. It was still just the Church.

 

[NKBJ]

Well, as I said, I'm predisposed against binary thinking, so I'm open to any other options.

To me, though, your third category is a variation of my second: God is powerful enough to co-opt the tools of evil and turn them to His use.

I'm totally ok with treating that as a 3rd option, though.

All interconnected, a blending, drawing upon associated elements*.

*The Clintonish third way (when B&H were preaching the third stage of the Hegelian process in praise of the China to come, to be the model for the NWO).

 

[Ziggidy]

What's amazing to me is that I see jabs being thrown in all different directions by individuals on very side; and to be quite honest, I only see a few individuals having a tissy fit during discussions. I was told when I joined INGO that one needs thick skin, yet "some" of those individuals who have no problem dishing it out seemingly cannot take it.

This thread, as with others (best defensive caliber, politics and such) gets everyone going and eventually people run out of things to say. This thread is 384 pages long. My gut tells me that once the attitudes calm down a bit, it'll continue to grow. Religion, politics, calibers and such discussion should never interfere with relationships. If it does, don't blame it on others, just look in the mirror. Remember, ya' need to have thick skin to be here in INGO......so I have been told.