Circle Center soon to become Fed Gun Free Zone...

[pudly]

Part of the NRA convention literature should be a map with a big red "No Go" marks on the mall and parking garage as well as posting people around the various entrances warning/handing out literature to anyone with any form of NRA/gun logo visible.

 

[chipbennett]

IC 35-31.5-2-285
"School property"
Sec. 285. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by: [Does not specify in whole or in part, this is the operative line that makes the ban]

IANAL. The entire mall complex is not owned or rented by the alternative school, so how would the entire mall complex fall under the statute?

(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common
with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1) [i.e. they share/rent/designate one parking space and the whole lot/garage is GFZ]

IANAL, still. The conjunction is AND, not OR. If the alternative school does not rent those grounds "adjacent to", then how is the rest of the mall complex "rented in common"?

 

[BobDaniels]

As if I needed yet ANOTHER excuse to not step foot in Circle Center Mall.....

 

[K_W]

IANAL. The entire mall complex is not owned or rented by the alternative school, so how would the entire mall complex fall under the statute?



IANAL, still. The conjunction is AND, not OR. If the alternative school does not rent those grounds "adjacent to", then how is the rest of the mall complex "rented in common"?

Line 1: See bold.

Line 2: The buildings are physically connected by multiple enclosed walkways, have a common parking area, and a common owner... all it takes is a sneaky prosecutor.

 

[chipbennett]

The buildings are physically connected by multiple enclosed walkways, have a common parking area, and a common owner... all it takes is a sneaky prosecutor.

...and someone willing to fight the charge and be found not guilty because the statute doesn't apply - or to be willing to appeal and have the statute declared void for vagueness.

 

[printcraft]

As if I needed yet ANOTHER excuse to not step foot in Circle Center Mall.....

This! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ F that noise.

 

[Paul30]

As if I needed yet ANOTHER excuse to not step foot in Circle Center Mall.....

True, but many accompany their wife or children for their safety. Also many ladies carry and like to go to the mall. Many elderly go because it is a climate controlled free place to walk in relative safety. It would be nice if the next change to the law specified that only in the actual educational area phrased in a way that made it crystal clear that you can't attach an entire building or property simply by opening up a school of some kind on 1% of the property. Some huge business buildings where one might go probably have day cares somewhere in them. It might also be an option to change the signage law where if they are a legitimately illegal place they be required to post an officially designed sign. Also make it a law that if someone simply copies that sign and uses it where it isn't legally applied there should be a large penalty. I have heard of some businesses doing that in other states. Either way, something needs to be done so we don't get accidental felonies due to a misunderstanding of weather a place is or is not a legal gun free / victim full / criminal safe zone.

 

[lonehoosier]

Call in and ask the question. https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-firearms-discussion/388613-wibc-gun-talk-thread.html

 

[BobDaniels]

True, but many accompany their wife or children for their safety. Also many ladies carry and like to go to the mall. Many elderly go because it is a climate controlled free place to walk in relative safety. It would be nice if the next change to the law specified that only in the actual educational area phrased in a way that made it crystal clear that you can't attach an entire building or property simply by opening up a school of some kind on 1% of the property. Some huge business buildings where one might go probably have day cares somewhere in them. It might also be an option to change the signage law where if they are a legitimately illegal place they be required to post an officially designed sign. Also make it a law that if someone simply copies that sign and uses it where it isn't legally applied there should be a large penalty. I have heard of some businesses doing that in other states. Either way, something needs to be done so we don't get accidental felonies due to a misunderstanding of weather a place is or is not a legal gun free / victim full / criminal safe zone.

I understand your angle, but my post was more about the problems at that mall and less about the law/school thing they have going on.

Have you been in Circle Center after 5 PM in the last 5 or so years? Nordstrom bailed about 5 years ago and I believe that space still sits empty. If they could do something about the roving bands of punks that drive off paying customers they might be in a better situation. But until parents actually be parents, that mall will continue to decline. Too bad because it's a nice mall otherwise.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I understand your angle, but my post was more about the problems at that mall and less about the law/school thing they have going on.

Have you been in Circle Center after 5 PM in the last 5 or so years? Nordstrom bailed about 5 years ago and I believe that space still sits empty. If they could do something about the roving bands of punks that drive off paying customers they might be in a better situation. But until parents actually be parents, that mall will continue to decline. Too bad because it's a nice mall otherwise.

Give it 5 more years. Without an anchor, it will end up like Union Station. I remember when that was the fashizzle... and the steaks at Rick's Cafe were awesome.

 

[Paul30]

I understand your angle, but my post was more about the problems at that mall and less about the law/school thing they have going on.

Have you been in Circle Center after 5 PM in the last 5 or so years? Nordstrom bailed about 5 years ago and I believe that space still sits empty. If they could do something about the roving bands of punks that drive off paying customers they might be in a better situation. But until parents actually be parents, that mall will continue to decline. Too bad because it's a nice mall otherwise.

I have never been, I was talking more about malls in general, or any business for that matter. If I go to a business and it happens to be in a large building that happens to have a school leasing a single room on the 19th floor I don't want to be committing a felony, and I should not have to wonder if a sign does or does not carry legal weight. They should be official signs, and those signs should not be placed on buildings that do not qualify as actual gun free / criminal safe zones.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Good discussion, and I'm sure that Rep. Lucas would love to hear from us regarding this.

I'd venture to say that the original intent of a lot of these laws was not to make otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals, but rather to add some additional muscle to charges if and when other crimes were committed. However, the laws have been twisted into making law abiding citizens, who have done nothing other than accidentally exercise a constitutional right at the wrong time, into criminals.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

I don't have anything constructive to add, I just wanted to say this. I have lived in Indianapolis 56 years and have never not even once, entered the Circle Center Mall.

I have everything I need. I drive my car. I watch TV. I eat pretty regular and I wear shoes...... All without ever stepping foot into Circle Center Mall. Or using the parking for that matter.

I feel OK, I don't feel deprived.

 

[Trigger Time]

This isn't gonna change a damn thing for me

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Line 2: The buildings are physically connected by multiple enclosed walkways, have a common parking area, and a common owner... all it takes is a sneaky prosecutor.

I believe you are being overly broad. However, kudos for paying attention!

 

[GNRPowdeR]

This Law needs revised, simply because of situations like this, The Children's Museum, and Churches that have a "school" on property. Really grinds my gears...

 

[TheSpark]

Gun laws don't prevent crimes committed with guns. No debate there, just a fact. I really wish legislatures would realize that.

All these laws do is get good people in trouble. They save 0 lives and prevent 0 crime.

Yes yes, I'm preaching to the choir.

As for the legality of carrying in a mall with a school renting part of the mall I'm not sure who is right. I tend to lean towards you are okay to carry as long as you stay out of the school part. Barring any change of law the only way anyone will ever be right or wrong on this subject is with case law.

 

[K_W]

Put it this way, some poor guy is going to be eating lunch at Johnny Rockets and some teacher from that alternative school is going to be on lunch too, see the butt of his gun peek out from under his shirt, she's going to call MWAG, the school will go on lock-down, a dozen officers are going to come out and the guy's going to be eating gum off linoleum for a while and then we will have our case law.

 

[Leo]

If the whole thing is true, as it appears to be, the only vote you have is with your money.

Not only the absence of it, but letting the people know why they are not seeing it. A person could write a letter to each store that is operating in the building, letting them know why you are unable to bring your freshly cashed paycheck to their busineses. Carbon copy to the stores corporate office if they are a franchise. As business goes slack and they have to renew their leases, this may be some thing that will put pressure on Simon.

Simon cannot stay in business with empty malls, no matter what school they rent to. Business does not give any thought to your "rights". But they do care about business, and business is money. They understand that language. If they already have vacancy due to groups of disruptive punks, they already shave some pressure. Turn it up a notch

 

[jblomenberg16]

If the whole thing is true, as it appears to be, the only vote you have is with your money.

Not only the absence of it, but letting the people know why they are not seeing it. A person could write a letter to each store that is operating in the building, letting them know why you are unable to bring your freshly cashed paycheck to their busineses. Carbon copy to the stores corporate office if they are a franchise. As business goes slack and they have to renew their leases, this may be some thing that will put pressure on Simon.

Simon cannot stay in business with empty malls, no matter what school they rent to. Business does not give any thought to your "rights". But they do care about business, and business is money. They understand that language. If they already have vacancy due to groups of disruptive punks, they already shave some pressure. Turn it up a notch

The other side of said coin is that some businesses may actually decide that they would rather not have gun owners in their stores (hence the no-guns signs some post), and that may further emblazon them to rent from Simon.

We're on the wrong side of the pendulum swing right now and its going to take hard work to overcome some of the outright lies that have been spewed in all the left-ist propaganda regarding gun ownership.