Catholic Leaders Threaten Obama With 100% Chance of Civil Disobedience Read more

[PistolBob]

However, I also believe that it is somewhat childish to claim that they will simply close their doors altogether.

Catholic hospitals will not perform abortions. They will close their doors. That will happen if the HHS mandate is not withdrawn. Catholic hospitals employ over a half million health care and support workers.

Once the hospital closes, will federal forces be deployed to force the hospitals to stay open? How will they staff them? The federal government does not have the right to make this mandate. It is a clear violation of the 1st amendment. The right to religious freedom is guaranteed.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Catholic hospitals will not perform abortions. They will close their doors. That will happen if the HHS mandate is not withdrawn. Catholic hospitals employ over a half million health care and support workers.

Once the hospital closes, will federal forces be deployed to force the hospitals to stay open? How will they staff them? The federal government does not have the right to make this mandate. It is a clear violation of the 1st amendment. The right to religious freedom is guaranteed.

That is fine if they refuse to provide abortions. Good for them. Imagine if they stood firm, refusing to provide abortions - and the next step was placed on the doorstep of the federal government.

However, closing their doors and denying medical services to all people, instead of just simply refusing to provide abortions, is a rather childish course of action IMO.

 

[PistolBob]

However, closing their doors and denying medical services to all people, instead of just simply refusing to provide abortions, is a rather childish course of action IMO.
[/IMG]

You don't get it. The government will FORCE them to close their doors unless the HHS mandate is rescinded. Refusing to provide abortions will not be tolerated under the HHS mandate. So, they can refuse and be threatened with prison, fines, confiscation, and who knows what else....perhaps we'll round up those old silly Christians and put them in a nice internment camp, you know, for their own good.

Or they can close the doors.

 

[mrjarrell]

Not even sure why anyone's mentioning abortion.As far as I can tell, this issue is about the birth control and reproductive services mandate, not abortion. The mandate doesn't cover abortion. Just access to birth control. Seems much ado about nothing. If you accept the kings coin then you have to abide by the kings rules. And catholic hospitals (along with their protestant brethren) suck at that particular teat every day to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars. Seems some bishops want to be martyred, (their own words). The only thing in this foofarah that concerns me is their outlook on who they are.

We're even Catholics before we're Americans

Seems I can't trust them anymore. They put their religion before the country. And their ex Nazi leader's word before our Constitution.

 

[RockofStrength]

Not even sure why anyone's mentioning abortion.As far as I can tell, this issue is about the birth control and reproductive services mandate, not abortion. The mandate doesn't cover abortion. Just access to birth control. Seems much ado about nothing. If you accept the kings coin then you have to abide by the kings rules. And catholic hospitals (along with their protestant brethren) suck at that particular teat every day to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars. Seems some bishops want to be martyred, (their own words). The only thing in this foofarah that concerns me is their outlook on who they are.

Seems I can't trust them anymore. They put their religion before the country. And their ex Nazi leader's word before our Constitution.

Wait, what? Isn't that the standard order of things?

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Not even sure why anyone's mentioning abortion.As far as I can tell, this issue is about the birth control and reproductive services mandate, not abortion. The mandate doesn't cover abortion. Just access to birth control. Seems much ado about nothing. If you accept the kings coin then you have to abide by the kings rules. And catholic hospitals (along with their protestant brethren) suck at that particular teat every day to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars. Seems some bishops want to be martyred, (their own words). The only thing in this foofarah that concerns me is their outlook on who they are.

Seems I can't trust them anymore. They put their religion before the country. And their ex Nazi leader's word before our Constitution.

To be completely fair, some of those drugs required to be provided by the HHS mandate are abortion-inducing drugs - not just standard birth control.

So, while it would not necessarily require them to perform surgical abortions like you would imagine when you hear the term "abortion", it would require them to provide drugs that yield the same effect during the early stages of pregnancy.

You don't get it. The government will FORCE them to close their doors unless the HHS mandate is rescinded. Refusing to provide abortions will not be tolerated under the HHS mandate. So, they can refuse and be threatened with prison, fines, confiscation, and who knows what else....perhaps we'll round up those old silly Christians and put them in a nice internment camp, you know, for their own good.

Or they can close the doors.

Keep in mind, many hospitals, or wings of - are built with government grants. They are often referred to as secular institutions when they apply for grant money.... which is the only way they can be approved.

It cannot work both ways. If you build part of your hospital with federal money, you should not be upset when you have to follow their regulations.

If it is a hospital that has been funded privately (entirely) - then they really should not have to honor the HHS mandate. I am not making the claim that they are not by law required to, just stating my opinion.

As far as I know, nobody is attempting to toss anyone in a box car. The level of "owzmuhgawdskyisfalling" is getting pretty silly.

 

[mrjarrell]

To be completely fair, some of those drugs required to be provided by the HHS mandate are abortion-inducing drugs - not just standard birth control.

So, while it would not necessarily require them to perform surgical abortions like you would imagine when you hear the term "abortion", it would require them to provide drugs that yield the same effect during the early stages of pregnancy.

I have never seen drugs like RU-486 even obliquely mentioned in regards to the mandate, the only one I have seen as part of it is the morning after pill, and it's not an abortifacient. It's just a strong dose of the Pill. Shoot, even Ron Paul finds no problem with it. This is just more of the catholic churches anti-birth control screed, exploded for maximum outrage.

 

[Solitaire]

Wait, what? Isn't that the standard order of things?

No.

 

[poptab]

Not even sure why anyone's mentioning abortion.As far as I can tell, this issue is about the birth control and reproductive services mandate, not abortion. The mandate doesn't cover abortion. Just access to birth control. Seems much ado about nothing. If you accept the kings coin then you have to abide by the kings rules. And catholic hospitals (along with their protestant brethren) suck at that particular teat every day to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars. Seems some bishops want to be martyred, (their own words). The only thing in this foofarah that concerns me is their outlook on who they are.

Seems I can't trust them anymore. They put their religion before the country. And their ex Nazi leader's word before our Constitution.

I am surprised at your saying this. Condemning Catholics for a perceived slight of the state? I can hardly imagine your patriotic loyalty to the state extends to condone its misuse of the initiation of force.

Does that mean fellow Americans cant trust you?

Here is an article explaining why pro life people find obamacare hhs mandate distasteful.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

First, unless you flunked biology class, it's not "killing a baby". Whether or not the abortion of a partially-formed potential human is taking a life is a matter of disagreement among people. It's wrong to base legislation on a religious belief that many people don't share. It's a matter of personal conscience, and it's an act of arrogance to force one person to obey the superstitions of another.

Second, what's worse - allowing an individual to make their own decision about what may or may not be the taking of a life, or promoting policies that deny basic rights to people who have already been born? Pulling the rug out from under retirees and the poor will create unconscionable suffering - that is far worse.

Its odd that someone can be charged, tried and put in jail for killing an unborn baby in its mother's womb.
Do you believe in magic? What happened that changed the little thing inside its mom into a human being that deserves rights like you do ? Is the birth canal a magical portal to person hood?
That argument holds no water. I mean, come on, the baby is alive in its mother's womb and if left alone it will be born alive. Where is the magical point at which it becomes a life ?
Mental gymnastics like that do nothing but allow people to make choices that deep down they know are wrong.

Abortion is murder.
I'll stand with the Catholics.

 

[mrjarrell]

I am surprised at your saying this. Condemning Catholics for a perceived slight of the state? I can hardly imagine your patriotic loyalty to the state extends to condone its misuse of the initiation of force.

Does that mean fellow Americans cant trust you?

Here is an article explaining why pro life people find obamacare hhs mandate distasteful.

I'm not condoning any initiation of force. Or a "slight of the state". The country isn't the government, and vice versa. Again, as I said earlier, if you take the kings coin and suck at that teat then you shouldn't be squealing when they set rules tat you may not like. In this case it's much ado about nothing. They're upset about an insurance mandate on birth control, not abortion. Just more nonsense from the catholic church and the hysterics. The mandate doesn't even cover abortions and the only mention of an abortifacient drug I can find is one for a drug called ella, which is not an abortifacient, and the hysteria covering it is all from the side of the catholics and their supporters, not science.

If you get in bed with the state you shouldn't be surprised when they set the rules. If the catholics and the others against this are dead set on it then they should stop accepting government funding and payments. There are strings attached to each penny.

 

[PistolBob]

Not even sure why anyone's mentioning abortion.As far as I can tell, this issue is about the birth control and reproductive services mandate, not abortion. The mandate doesn't cover abortion. Just access to birth control. Seems much ado about nothing. If you accept the kings coin then you have to abide by the kings rules. And catholic hospitals (along with their protestant brethren) suck at that particular teat every day to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars. Seems some bishops want to be martyred, (their own words). The only thing in this foofarah that concerns me is their outlook on who they are.

Seems I can't trust them anymore. They put their religion before the country. And their ex Nazi leader's word before our Constitution.

I hope you get your confusion worked out one day. You're wrong about the HHS mandate not covering elective abortion. Keep reading.

Oh and your bigoted use of the word nazi pretty much clears up what your real point is. Obviously our opinions about things differ greatly.

 

[PistolBob]

Abortion is murder. I'll stand with the Catholics.

It is indeed, but Caveman, being pro-life doesn't make you a Catholic. Christians, Jews, and even those nutty Muslims all stand against abortion. You can be sure of this though, the devil goes to church....that's how I explain Kathleen Sebelius.

 

[poptab]

I'm not condoning any initiation of force. Or a "slight of the state". The country isn't the government, and vice versa. Again, as I said earlier, if you take the kings coin and suck at that teat then you shouldn't be squealing when they set rules tat you may not like. In this case it's much ado about nothing. They're upset about an insurance mandate on birth control, not abortion. Just more nonsense from the catholic church and the hysterics. The mandate doesn't even cover abortions and the only mention of an abortifacient drug I can find is one for a drug called ella, which is not an abortifacient, and the hysteria covering it is all from the side of the catholics and their supporters, not science.

If you get in bed with the state you shouldn't be surprised when they set the rules. If the catholics and the others against this are dead set on it then they should stop accepting government funding and payments. There are strings attached to each penny.

You seem to think the Catholics are complaining about nothing. But they seem to be making a big deal of this nothing. Even if its something as small as Catholics thinking skittles are evil and dont want to sell them in their vending machines. This is about the right of free association.

You do realize the hhs mandate includes small businesses that do not take any state funding right?

Also, hospitals are just a collection of individuals. These individuals are making a salary which is then taxed by the state. So isnt the hospital just getting the money taken from the individuals who make up the hospital back? Dont blame the players, blame the rules.

I find it funny you would just toss the Catholics under the giant bus of big government and be ok with it.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You seem to think the Catholics are complaining about nothing. But they seem to be making a big deal of this nothing. Even if its something as small as Catholics thinking skittles are evil and dont want to sell them in their vending machines. This is about the right of free association.

You do realize the hhs mandate includes small businesses that do not take any state funding right?

Also, hospitals are just a collection of individuals. These individuals are making a salary which is then taxed by the state. So isnt the hospital just getting the money taken from the individuals who make up the hospital back? Dont blame the players, blame the rules.

I find it funny you would just toss the Catholics under the giant bus of big government and be ok with it.

You've surely been on board long enough to realize that many, if not most Libertarians on INGO have deep seated animosity towards anything religious, particularly Christian. Minimalizing, scoffing, all the way to outright ridicule are well worn tools of theirs when discussing issues involving organized religion or their followers.

ETA: (at least the ones that post in the political subforum).

 

[hornadylnl]

You've surely been on board long enough to realize that many, if not most Libertarians on INGO have deep seated animosity towards anything religious, particularly Christian. Minimalizing, scoffing, all the way to outright ridicule are well worn tools of theirs when discussing issues involving organized religion or their followers.

ETA: (at feast the ones that post in the political subforum).

I know of 2 libertarians here who are Christians. They're worried about religion in government mostly because of the negative affects of the inverse relationship. A church big enough to influence legislation is a church that can be ruled by the government. My religion is between me and my God, not you, government officials or legislation.

 

[mrjarrell]

I hope you get your confusion worked out one day. You're wrong about the HHS mandate not covering elective abortion. Keep reading.

Oh and your bigoted use of the word nazi pretty much clears up what your real point is. Obviously our opinions about things differ greatly.

Not confused in the least. Just seeing the manufactured outrage for what it is. As for the nazi reference....it stands. The current pope was a Hitler jugend, by his own admission. Makes him a former nazi in any reality, even yours.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I know of 2 libertarians here who are Christians. They're worried about religion in government mostly because of the negative affects of the inverse relationship. A church big enough to influence legislation is a church that can be ruled by the government. My religion is between me and my God, not you, government officials or legislation.

If you'll notice, I did not use the word "all". Your decision on the appropriate use or subordination of your religion in your everyday life is indeed between you and your God.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

You know, I've always been pro choice, my whole life. I have always believed that it is not up to any individual to have control over another individuals body. That being said, I have also always been of the opinion that it took two to create a life/fetus/disease or however you choose to classify a pregnancy and it should take the consent of BOTH to end it. I have always chosen LIFE for my seeds. Recently the methods of forcing everyone to pay for killing babies via tax dollars, charities collecting money to fund cancer research only to instead spend it killing babies, and a great number of other issues have forced me to actively engage in PRO LIFE endeavors. Don't get me wrong I still get offended when I see a billboard claiming "Smile your mother was pro-life" and I DO call and complain that my mother choosing life does not make her pro-life but rather quite the opposite. I also get offended by billboards claiming "second hand smoke is child abuse" since the chemicals pumped into the air by the factories producing the materials the signs are made from are no more healthy and would also then equate to child abuse....

 

[poptab]

You've surely been on board long enough to realize that many, if not most Libertarians on INGO have deep seated animosity towards anything religious, particularly Christian. Minimalizing, scoffing, all the way to outright ridicule are well worn tools of theirs when discussing issues involving organized religion or their followers.

ETA: (at least the ones that post in the political subforum).

I am a libertarian and believe the initiation of force is wrong. I am also a christian. I am certainly not perfect and I know that no one is.

I was on his case because it seemed inconsistent to me from what I have read him say before. I agree with him on many issues but religion is probably not one of them. Not every libertarian is a militant atheist. In fact, libertarianism has nothing to do with religion at all.

Everyone needs a little humility including me. And no one as yet has answered any of the hard philosophical questions I asked earlier. You cant in fact answer those questions without acknowledging that the people on the other side of the argument are not just stupid, small minded people who believe in fairy tales.

It is sad that many atheists assume that Catholics are mentally deficient simply because they are Catholics. It is also funny since many atheists like philosophy. They apparently never read Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine.

It is hard to discredit a position if you do not even know what the position is.