Carry on ones own property.

[MikeDVB]

And what if this officer got a report that you are a convicted felon or otherwise ineligible to legally carry/own a gun? It's entirely possible he/she DOES have PC to talk to you and you're just not aware of it. What are you guys going to do if you get SWATted?

Then they can show me the warrant and talk to my attorney.

If an officer wants to talk to me about me legally carrying a firearm on my own property, they can do it from the other side of the property line.

 

[Mark 1911]

If I am on my own property I do not need an LTCH to carry there, and would not show it to them for that reason. I would not have a problem with showing them my ID to prove I live there, but that's where the Q&A session should end.

Similar situation: Preparing to go deer hunting, was loading things into my car around 2am - could understand how that could be taken the wrong way by a neighbor. My neighbors didn't all know me yet because I had only recently moved here. Somebody called the PD and they showed up. PD didn't look too concerned about me probably because I didn't look too concerned about them. I just told them I was packing the car for a hunting trip, and showed them my ID to prove I lived there, and they smiled and waved goodbye. My neighbor and I still laugh about that one!

 

[daddymikey1975]

officer "someone called about a MWAG, do you have your permit and driver's license?"
me "who called?"
officer "so and so"
me "do they live at this address?"
office "no, may I see your permit and driver's license"
me "so, they don't live at this address. No you may not but thanks for asking"

then I turn and go into the house.

 

[random_eyes]

There's a 90 percent chance that the direction and outcome of the encounter is going to be determined by the attitude and presentation of the cop as he comes onto your property and up to you.

Even the most hardcore "my rights" people on INGO tend to respond better and more politely to a polite, smiling cop who gives an attitude of really wanting nothing more than to clear up a minor point.

Perhaps until you become victim of a civil forfeiture witch hunt i.e. Civil Forfeiture Laws And The Continued Assault On Private Property - Forbes.com. "Good Cop, Bad Cop" is one of the oldest games in the book. I know firsthand how quickly the conversation can go from "How is the IU basketball team doing this year?" to "YOUR FRIEND IS LYING TO ME AND I NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS. Where are the drugs? Can I search your vehicle? That's a 'yes' or 'no' question." Cue the dogs and watching gloved goons picking through your luggage for the next 45 minutes while you stand separated from your friend aside the highway in the hot Texas sun...

 

[hoosierdoc]

Then they can show me the warrant and talk to my attorney.

If an officer wants to talk to me about me legally carrying a firearm on my own property, they can do it from the other side of the property line.

Are you sure on that one? If you are in plain sight doing something that was reported to them as being illegal, don't they have the legal authority to investigate?

911 call: "There is a convicted felon wearing XYZ who looks like 123 at the house next door and he's on his front yard carrying a gun".

When the police show up and you fit the description, are you saying they would need a warrant to ID you if you are observed to be the individual that was mentioned by the caller and you were indeed armed?

This is not a random stop by police just because you're carrying. It's a response to a person who reported a law being broken. What would you do if you were SWATed? Would you yell through the door to get a warrant and go away when 15 rifles are pointed at your house and a helicopter is flooding you from above?

 

[jbombelli]

Are you sure on that one? If you are in plain sight doing something that was reported to them as being illegal, don't they have the legal authority to investigate?

911 call: "There is a convicted felon wearing XYZ who looks like 123 at the house next door and he's on his front yard carrying a gun".

When the police show up and you fit the description, are you saying they would need a warrant to ID you if you are observed to be the individual that was mentioned by the caller and you were indeed armed?

This is not a random stop by police just because you're carrying. It's a response to a person who reported a law being broken. What would you do if you were SWATed? Would you yell through the door to get a warrant and go away when 15 rifles are pointed at your house and a helicopter is flooding you from above?

They can find out easily enough who owns the property through county records. They can use that information to get criminal records info along with BMV pictures and everything, all without talking to me at all. And they can get that fairly quickly. And if I'm seen with a firearm in my front yard, chances are I'm mowing the grass, or washing my truck, or something equally indicative of LIVING THERE.

Let the police do their due diligence before they roll up on somebody. They should be asking the person that called it in... "what's his name?" "What's he doing?" "How do you know he's a felon?" and probably a few other questions I haven't thought of right this second. Then, if after the questions, and after checking county records etc. they believe a crime has been committed, let them get their warrant.

 

[MikeDVB]

Are you sure on that one? If you are in plain sight doing something that was reported to them as being illegal, don't they have the legal authority to investigate?

Sure - they can show up and see I'm not doing anything illegal and I can refuse to answer questions.

What makes you think that they have reason to detain me? I could call and say you're outside shooting bullets into the ground - unless the officer sees it - what is he going to do?

If he shows up and sees me with a firearm holstered and I'm not doing anything illegal and he doesn't have a warrant he isn't coming onto my property, he isn't searching me or seizing any of my possessions and if he wishes to do so he can get a warrant. If he wants to talk to me - I'll give him my attorney's name and phone number.

911 call: "There is a convicted felon wearing XYZ who looks like 123 at the house next door and he's on his front yard carrying a gun".

Guilty until proven innocent? Does it work like that?

When the police show up and you fit the description, are you saying they would need a warrant to ID you if you are observed to be the individual that was mentioned by the caller and you were indeed armed?

They have, simply by me existing, no reason to believe I'm a felon. If they have evidence that isn't hearsay that indicates that I am a felon, sure, investigate - but you will do so through my attorney because I will not answer any questions. At the end of the day unless they have evidence that would hold up in court they're playing a dangerous game.

This is not a random stop by police just because you're carrying. It's a response to a person who reported a law being broken. What would you do if you were SWATed? Would you yell through the door to get a warrant and go away when 15 rifles are pointed at your house and a helicopter is flooding you from above?

If they're swatting me - they had better have a warrant or they aren't entering. If they force entry into my place of residence without a warrant I'll see them in civil court.

We are not guilty until proven innocent and our persons and property are protected from unwarranted search and seizure by the constitution.

 

[Hemingway]

I fully support your rights since it's your own property but for those who would just tell the officer to go pound sand the second he requests ID or a LTCH, may I ask you a question?

How does the cop KNOW it's YOUR property?

Imagine this scenario:

911 call comes in man with a gun in a yard. Cop shows up, tries to question the man, he says, "It's my own property, I can do what I want. Buzz off." And the guy goes back into the house.

BUT, it's not his house! He's burglarizing the place, or he's about to walk into the house and kill his ex-wife's new boyfriend or whatever while the cop just stands around looking stupid.

I think it's best to think about each side of the situation. Yeah, you don't need a LTCH on your property. Yeah, you don't have to talk to the cop, yeah, I get it. We're all super tough and don't take nuthin from no authority figures. But, can you imagine if you got a call at work that the cops just let an armed man walk into your house and kill your family? Will you not be outraged that the LEO did nothing, saying, "Well, it's private property after all. Oh well."

I know many of you said you'd show your ID and that's all and I think that's fine but for those of you that would refuse anything...you don't think that seems unreasonable? You have a set of information (it IS your property) that the LEO doesn't have and he can only do the best he can with the information he's got.

 

[jgreiner]

There's a 90 percent chance that the direction and outcome of the encounter is going to be determined by the attitude and presentation of the cop as he comes onto your property and up to you.

Even the most hardcore "my rights" people on INGO tend to respond better and more politely to a polite, smiling cop who gives an attitude of really wanting nothing more than to clear up a minor point.

If a cop walks onto my property smiling, and talkative...most likely we will have a long conversation about guns, crime, etc. I have had this happen to me in public when I have been OCing.

But if he arrives with an attitude.......he will be told to get a warrant.

 

[Jeremy2124]

Ask for reasoning behind his demands. If he doesn't have a legal concern I would walk away.

 

[jbombelli]

I fully support your rights since it's your own property but for those who would just tell the officer to go pound sand the second he requests ID or a LTCH, may I ask you a question?

How does the cop KNOW it's YOUR property?

Imagine this scenario:

911 call comes in man with a gun in a yard. Cop shows up, tries to question the man, he says, "It's my own property, I can do what I want. Buzz off." And the guy goes back into the house.

BUT, it's not his house! He's burglarizing the place, or he's about to walk into the house and kill his ex-wife's new boyfriend or whatever while the cop just stands around looking stupid.

I think it's best to think about each side of the situation. Yeah, you don't need a LTCH on your property. Yeah, you don't have to talk to the cop, yeah, I get it. We're all super tough and don't take nuthin from no authority figures. But, can you imagine if you got a call at work that the cops just let an armed man walk into your house and kill your family? Will you not be outraged that the LEO did nothing, saying, "Well, it's private property after all. Oh well."

I know many of you said you'd show your ID and that's all and I think that's fine but for those of you that would refuse anything...you don't think that seems unreasonable? You have a set of information (it IS your property) that the LEO doesn't have and he can only do the best he can with the information he's got.

As I said earlier...

They can find out easily enough who owns the property through county records. They can use that information to get criminal records info along with BMV pictures and everything, all without talking to me at all. And they can get that fairly quickly. And if I'm seen with a firearm in my front yard, chances are I'm mowing the grass, or washing my truck, or something equally indicative of LIVING THERE.

Let the police do their due diligence before they roll up on somebody. They should be asking the person that called it in... "what's his name?" "What's he doing?" "How do you know he's a felon?" and probably a few other questions I haven't thought of right this second. Then, if after the questions, and after checking county records etc. they believe a crime has been committed, let them get their warrant.

Do you approve of SWAT teams kicking in doors based solely on the say-so of some random caller? "OMG A hostage situation! Send the SWAT TEAM!" This lack of due diligence by the police before they go on a run is a big part of the problems we all face in these circumstances. God forbid they actually make a phone call or ask a few questions to verify their info. Right?

 

[MikeDVB]

I fully support your rights since it's your own property but for those who would just tell the officer to go pound sand the second he requests ID or a LTCH, may I ask you a question?
How does the cop KNOW it's YOUR property?

I don't have to prove that it's my property, they have to prove that it isn't. You do, of course, realize that we are innocent until proven guilty right?

911 call comes in man with a gun in a yard. Cop shows up, tries to question the man, he says, "It's my own property, I can do what I want. Buzz off." And the guy goes back into the house.

BUT, it's not his house! He's burglarizing the place, or he's about to walk into the house and kill his ex-wife's new boyfriend or whatever while the cop just stands around looking stupid.

I would suspect, under such circumstances, there would be reasonable suspicion that more was going on than was let on by the person. Generally when somebody is burglarizing a house they aren't going to come out to meet the police to try and talk them into leaving.

If you can find just one case of this happening, I'll be surprised.

I think it's best to think about each side of the situation. Yeah, you don't need a LTCH on your property. Yeah, you don't have to talk to the cop, yeah, I get it.

You don't seem to - you can type the words all day but that doesn't mean you get the underlying meaning.

We're all super tough and don't take nuthin from no authority figures.

Who said it has anything to do with being super tough and not taking 'nothin' from authority figures?

I could be disabled, in a wheel chair, and only have the use of my right arm and my mouth and I would still be just as able to tell an officer to get off my property and to buzz off.

But, can you imagine if you got a call at work that the cops just let an armed man walk into your house and kill your family?

Show me just one example of this happening, please.

Will you not be outraged that the LEO did nothing, saying, "Well, it's private property after all. Oh well."

It's not so simple as officer shows up and gunman happens to be hanging around outside for them to show up. Gunman then talks police into believing that the house is the gunman's and then he goes in and shoots everybody.

I would have to say this has never happened, but you're welcome to prove me wrong. I can make up an arbitrary example of something that's never happened to prove my point as well - but I'd prefer to stick to reality.

I know many of you said you'd show your ID and that's all and I think that's fine but for those of you that would refuse anything...you don't think that seems unreasonable?

Being on my own property and not doing anything illegal - yes, it seems unreasonable.

You have a set of information (it IS your property) that the LEO doesn't have and he can only do the best he can with the information he's got.

Sure, and he can hang around, at my property line, until he sorts it out.

They *can* detain you temporarily if they have reasonable suspicion to believe that a crime is being committed or is about to be committed but unless they can articulate that crime there is no requirement for you to ID yourself. Does it make their life harder, and probably extend the length of the detention - sure.

 

[Hemingway]

I concede on all arguments.

I am certainly glad I am not a cop in Indiana!

 

[cbseniour]

The same t hing I do anytime I encounter a LEO, Goodmorning, how you doing. what can I do for you.
I'm on my own property, with my gun and posing no threat to anyone so kindly leave.

 

[Jack Burton]

I concede on all arguments.

I am certainly glad I am not a cop in Indiana!

Based upon your understanding of the way you wnat the law to work so are we.

BTW... do you believe other states do a more more lax job of following th eBill of Rights?

 

[hoosierdoc]

Guilty until proven innocent? Does it work like that?

They have, simply by me existing, no reason to believe I'm a felon.

If they're swatting me - they had better have a warrant or they aren't entering. If they force entry into my place of residence without a warrant I'll see them in civil court.

I trimmed it down a bit.

First sentence: we all are until a court decides that, but the first part is the police investigate which they would be doing by asking for ID and talking to you.

Second: again, this is not a random stop, they are responding to an accusation by a citizen. By your reasoning, when are police allowed to question anyone for anything someone else claims happened?

Third: that is after the fact. I'm asking what you'd do at the moment.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Has this EVER happened to anybody?

 

[MikeDVB]

I trimmed it down a bit.

Sure .

First sentence: we all are until a court decides that, but the first part is the police investigate which they would be doing. Don't need straw arguments here.

So what you're saying is that the police can decide I'm guilty, arrest me, and have me prosecuted simply based upon their presumption of guilt?

They need no [arrest] warrant and no evidence to obtain an arrest warrant? A neighbor making a call is not, in and of itself, evidence of a crime. It does give suspicion but it is not evidence.

I've been pulled over because somebody else called in that I was speeding...

Officer stopped me, "We received a call that you were speeding."
Me: "How can I help you officer?"
Officer: "Slow down."
Me: "Have a nice day!"

Was I annoyed? Sure, I wasn't speeding - I had set the cruise to the limit and hadn't touched it. Would I have fought any citation given in court - absolutely. There is a time and place and context is important. The officer did not see me exceeding the speed limit because I had not, the call in and of itself would only be evidence if the caller testified in court and, I imagine, it would be pretty easy for any decent lawyer to get that thrown out.

Second: again, this is not a random stop, they are responding to an accusation by a citizen. By your reasoning, when are police allowed to question anyone for anything someone else claims happened?

I never said they couldn't question me, but simply that I would not answer their questions. I do not have to prove that I am not a felon, they have to prove that I am.

Again, this goes back to the presumption of innocence - I do understand it's a legal matter for a court to sort out and the officer certainly could presume me guilty but you're not going to make very many cases that way unless you're lucky.

Third: that is after the fact. I'm asking what you'd do at the moment.

You asked if they swatted me, what I would do? Ultimately - unless I'm going to assume they don't have a warrant and open fire to defend myself and my property [in which, I would lose - there are more of them and less of me] I would have no choice but to let them enter. I would have no obligation to answer their questions and, without a warrant, anything they found in a search would get tossed out in court.

I would record the event and be on the phone with my attorney, but that's about all one could do short of actually resisting such action which is going to end badly no matter how you slice it.

I would pursue civil litigation after the fact, as I obviously can't do it before it happens.

 

[Hemingway]

BTW... do you believe other states do a more more lax job of following th eBill of Rights?

Yes.

 

[MikeDVB]

Yes.

So what you're saying is that we, as Indiana Citizens, have more rights granted to us under the Bill of Rights than other citizens in other states?

Can you quantify that?