Can You Shoot Him?

[GuyRelford]

Here's the next scenario in our "Legal Quandaries" series, which has generated a positive response so far:

You park your beloved '69 GTO "Judge" convertible at a local shopping mall, just before closing, in order to run in and shop for a last-minute birthday gift for your wife.

When you return to your car, you notice three men around your car, and you realize they've just removed two of your rims and are in the process of loading them into the back of a nearby SUV. When you yell out, two of the men run away, but the third continues to carry your expensive refurbished wheels toward the back of the waiting truck.

Having an Indiana LTCH, you are armed. You draw your .45 cal. handgun from your IWB holster and clearly warn the thief: "Drop my property or I will shoot you."

He ignores you. He is about to load your wheels into the back of the truck.

He has his hands full with your wheels, and you can't see any weapons on his person. Being concerned about using "deadly force" under the circumstances, you decide to shoot him in the calf in order to prevent him from stealing your property.

You deliver a perfectly-placed shot to the back of his lower leg. He screams out in pain, and drops your wheels. The SUV takes off.

IMPD arrives almost immediately, and you tell the responding officers the entire story, exactly as it transpired. They arrest him.

Do you have any legal problems?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

You shot an unarmed man that had his back to you, I say you would go to jail.

Edited to add: I personally hate thieves and think a non-fatal shot would show them the error of their ways, but I think that based on the circumstance you would be screwed.

 

[VUPDblue]

You shot an unarmed man that had his back to you, I say you would go to jail.

Edited to add: I personally hate thieves and think a non-fatal shot would show them the error of their ways, but I think that based on the circumstance you would be screwed.

This.

 

[TODD1]

i concur

 

[jedi]

I believe...
In the State of TX you would be okay from criminal suit but not civil.
In the State of IN you are going to be in trouble criminally and civil.
Your life and anyone eles wasnot in immediate danger so deadly force (shooting) was not valid. Me thinks.

 

[GuyRelford]

But doesn't Indiana law allow the use of "reasonable force" to protect property?

 

[VUPDblue]

Deadly force against an unarmed individual who's stealing your property is not reasonable...

 

[clt46910]

I also believe you would be in trouble for shooting an unarmed man that was not a threat to you.

While I agree that he desired it and would do so myself if it was legal to do so. With our present laws, it is not.

Now a flashlight up the side of the head when he has his arms full of your tire and rims, maybe.

 

[Blaze261]

You shot an unarmed man that had his back to you, I say you would go to jail.

Edited to add: I personally hate thieves and think a non-fatal shot would show them the error of their ways, but I think that based on the circumstance you would be screwed.

He nailed it on the first post.

 

[possum_128]

You go to jail. Deadly force cannot be used to stop someone from stealing property only. Deadly force can only be used to stop a forcible felony not common theft.

In the course of the theft, the man made no verbal thread and no threating moves nor was a weapon of any type seen. The ltch holder was in no danger of life or limb, nor was a third person.

 

[VN Vet]

If you had time to think about drawing your firearm, you had time to look at a memorizing the the description of the SUV and it's license plate number. Having the BG's stopped with your rims in their vehicle and prosucuting them would have been so much fun.

Wheels are stuff that can be recovered or replaced. I would not have presented my firearm let alone fired at the BG.

 

[Shay]

Bad shooting and bad shoot.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Its not reasonable force it is deadly force, no matter if you shoot to injure, kill, stop or even a warning shot. Once you fire the weapon it is deadly force. Since it was a simple theft on an unoccupied vehicle with no threat of serious bodily injury, deadly force is not legal.

ETA Actually just pointing your firearm at him is quite possibly against the law, IN code allows you to point a firearm at someone only if you have reasonable belief that an unlawful use of force is imminent.

 

[newguyjosh]

I'm going to have to agree with everyone and say no. This was not a forcible felony and shooting him was not reasonable force. I think the best course of action was to get the plate number and call the police with a vehicle and thief description.

My question would be (sorry for asking a question in your question) is what if instead of shooting him I ran after him and decked him. I think thats reasonable...but then his 2 or 3 buddies jumped in and they were all beating me. Could I shoot? I think probably not because I escalated the situation by punching him. If they just plain out attacked me I could shoot?

 

[critter592]

I'm going to have to agree with everyone and say no. This was not a forcible felony and shooting him was not reasonable force. I think the best course of action was to get the plate number and call the police with a vehicle and thief description.

My question would be (sorry for asking a question in your question) is what if instead of shooting him I ran after him and decked him. I think thats reasonable...but then his 2 or 3 buddies jumped in and they were all beating me. Could I shoot? I think probably not because I escalated the situation by punching him. If they just plain out attacked me I could shoot?

Exactly my question too! You're CCW. Your stuff is being taken. You can't shoot them but you can use "reasonable" force. You try to physically intervene with the one guy. You haven't drawn anything. You tussle and he fights. What if you realise he's much stronger than you and you feel you are about to receive SBI? Now are you within the law to shoot? Just because he doesn't have a weapon doesn't mean you aren't in danger of SBI.

 

[Delmar]

How about shooting a tire out of the SUV? Kind of hard to flee real fast, in a getaway car, with a flat tire.

 

[GuyRelford]

Exactly my question too! You're CCW. Your stuff is being taken. You can't shoot them but you can use "reasonable" force. You try to physically intervene with the one guy. You haven't drawn anything. You tussle and he fights. What if you realise he's much stronger than you and you feel you are about to receive SBI? Now are you within the law to shoot? Just because he doesn't have a weapon doesn't mean you aren't in danger of SBI.

Great question. Consider this portion of the Indiana Code:

"(e) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c), a person is not justified in using force if:

* * *

(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action."

 

[HCAman]

How about shooting a tire out of the SUV? Kind of hard to flee real fast, in a getaway car, with a flat tire.

I was going to ask this but Delmar already did, Is this legal?

 

[critter592]

Since I don't have enough posts to PM yet GL what is the website from you sig line? Tactical Firearms Training, LLC. I can't seem to find it with a Google search. So many other websites come up with similar key words.

 

[Beau]

Great question. Consider this portion of the Indiana Code:

"(e) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c), a person is not justified in using force if:

* * *

(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action."

So you go up to him and give him a good smack. When they turn to attack you back off state that you don't want to fight and then shoot him when he continues to advance?

As to the original post I will follow the crowd. Your going to jail.