Can You Kill Him?

[ddenny5]

I would like to know if there is any cases in this state or any other state where a simular situation may have happened. Charges may or not be filed depending on the DA's interpatation of the castle doctrine. It would be interesting to find out if anyone has been charged or had them dropped for shooting someone fleeing one's house.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

My bedroom is accessable only one way. I can totally control access to it. I will deny access to my bedroom with deadly force.

So...what sort of armor do you have in the walls around your bedroom?

It's within the realm of possibility that there are more than two intruders and, therefore, more firearms. Last I checked, 5/8" drywall & 2x4 studs spaced 16" on center don't stop bullets. I argue that retribution is a real threat while they remain on your unsecured property & that anyone involved in such a violent felony is a threat until they're disappearing into the night.

Personally, I feel that they remain a threat even after leaving the property because they've shown total disregard for your life by entering your home uninvited & armed at 2am.

 

[r6vr6]

Assuming Texas law and the Indiana law are the same (probably aren't) then it should be legal to shoot BG2. Joe Horn case as reference: Joe Horn shooting controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for what I'd do - BG1 goner. BG2 if I have all family members are with me he can have the silver plates to eat his $hit sandwiches from. Even if it is legal for him to be shot I'd think it was not based on our PC society. I've been on a jury up here and I think they'd convict the good guy with the given circumstances. Morally I'm neutral on shooting BG2 because I'm sure he's probably done the same or worse before and will do it again and maybe be more brazen and deadly about it. On the other hand I'd have a hard time shooting him in the back as he was running out the door. Hard call in a high stress low awareness situation.

 

[Jay]

So...what sort of armor do you have in the walls around your bedroom?

I just knew there would be one case of dementia out there......

 

[WabashMX5]

I argue that retribution is a real threat while they remain on your unsecured property & that anyone involved in such a violent felony is a threat until they're disappearing into the night.

You're right. But under the facts we're given, BG2 is "disappearing into the night" -- therefore, no justification for deadly force. As the law-school saying goes, "you can't shoot the burglar through the TV set."

If the Joe Horn case is the one I'm thinking of, he was only cleared because Texas law is unusually broad on that point (IIRC, it allows use of deadly force to defend person or property). That seems to be where the sympathies of most INGOers lie, but it isn't how Indiana law works.

 

[UltraRick]

This is a great thread! Thanks GL!

 

[Paco Bedejo]

You're right. But under the facts we're given, BG2 is "disappearing into the night" -- therefore, no justification for deadly force.

Still in my dark foyer holding something wood & metal IS NOT "disappearing into the night".

Full-on Olympic sprinter run (hands fully opened & extended) across the yard & high-stepping IS "disappearing into the night".

 

[csaws]

Nope, you no longer have a duty to retreat, I could be wrong but doesn't your "castle" also include any land you own? I will not assume that he does not have a second firearm or buddies outside... I too will not assume this is the last time he will be at my "castle".

After having re-read the Castle Doctrine, I believe the second guy will get you in trouble... I do however think you could not be in trouble if you had chosen to place the shot elsewhere (i.e. non-lethal)

I also believe I will take my chances, and drop him.

I also agree with Paco it is unlikely that jay(?) only has one way into his bedrrom. Mine has a door and windows.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

I just knew there would be one case of dementia out there......

So, you don't think it's possible that the two in your bedroom were accompanied by others & that the one who got away isn't going to prompt the others to shoot through the walls to get "even"?

Odds are that these guys play video games & in modern First-Person Shooters, you shoot through the walls.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but I am saying that drywall & studs do not make you safe.

 

[concrete dog]

the first bad guy no the second on maybe

 

[SMiller]

When its all said and done its just like every other shooting case, it all depends on what kind of mood the prosecutor is in that day...

Charges might be brought up a few weeks latter or the media might make you a good guy and the town will take a stand for you. Hope for the best and be glad your family is ok. Keep another gun located somewhere else because they are going to take your guns.

 

[mrjarrell]

Since BG 1 is presumably dead isn't BG2 now guilty of murder, since BG1 died in the commission of a felony? Can't you stop a murderer from fleeing?

 

[eatsnopaste]

The crime is still going on, he is still in your house, breaking into your house armed makes several felonies, will all depend on what the DA see's as "reasonable" I say your going to be ok in most of Indiana, if BG 2 was driving away or across the street...yeah shooting him would be a bad idea, running down the hallway? He's a felon in my house...he asked for the bullet in the head.

 

[AndersonIN]

Below burglar was shot and hit with gun outside of house!
Police: Homeowner Shot, Beat Would-Be Burglar - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis

I believe your only issue would be if you have a ******* for a prosecutor!

 

[eatsnopaste]

When its all said and done its just like every other shooting case, it all depends on what kind of mood the prosecutor is in that day...

Charges might be brought up a few weeks latter or the media might make you a good guy and the town will take a stand for you. Hope for the best and be glad your family is ok. Keep another gun located somewhere else because they are going to take your guns.

Do we know if the prosecutor is up for re-election? Oops, sorry I KNOW that would have no bearing on the case! (have a relative who is a prosecutor..i'm sure he will be thrilled with my question!)

 

[bigus_D]

BG1: I would definitely shoot. This is obvious to all.

BG2: Sounds like most people would not shoot to kill him as he runs for the door. Hard to say what would actually happen in the heat of the moment... am I sure he is running un-armed, are there more attackers, etc etc. If I took the shot (BIG IF) I would say as little as possible until I spoke with my attorney. BG2 is running from my house with my property under his arm. He broke in armed. I assume, running from my house with my property as part of an armed home invasion/robbery, BG2 is still commiting a felony as he is fleeing. I am legally permited to use neccessary force to stop the commission of this forcible felony. I'm not about to wrestle with him... how else am I to stop him?

My opinion is that shooting BG2 is justified (neccessary force to stop a forcible felony). That said, I hope I wouldn't have taken the shot... I hope I never have to take any shot for that matter.

Looking forward to the "official" verdict.

 

[Bushido Devil Dog]

+

How Well Do You Know Indiana Gun Law?

Here's the scenario: You're at home with your wife and children. It's 2:00 am. Two masked, armed intruders break into your home. One has a loaded AK, the other a loaded sawed-off 12 ga. shotgun.

After a few seconds, your trusty labrador hears them in the home, and alerts you with aggressive barking, just as the pair of thugs enters your master bedroom.

You pull your handgun of choice from your nightstand and deliver two perfect center-of-mass shots to the first intruder as he appoaches the bed, and you retire him from the fight immediately.

Upon seeing his partner crumple, the other bad guy throws down his shotgun and runs for the front door, which is still open. You clear the corner of the room in time to see him in the foyer still 3 feet from the front door, with your grandmother's silver collection under his arm, screaming like a baby and running like hell for the door. You drop him with another perfectly-placed shot to the back of the head.

Your security system has captured every bit of the event on video.

Do you have any legal problems?

Problems? Yes. Dead bodies with fatal gunshot wounds usually draw the interest of Johnny Law no matter how "good"/justifiable the shoot is...

However, for the shooting of perp #2 the situation as described above, *if* the shooter and his lawyer play their cards right:

Prosecutor: "Your security footage shows you clearly executing an unarmed, fleeing man in the head! That's murder!"

Ace #1:
Shooter/his lawyer: "No sir, as I have already testified, and the tape shows, he was out of my line of sight for some time. The tape shows it to be a mere second or so, but as has been well documented in studies about human performance under tramatic stress, my perception was that it was several seconds. This is called the Tachy-Psych effect, in which the instinct to survive a tramatic combat situation causes a drastically altered perception of the 5 senses and the passage of time.
Fearing for the safety of my children, I followed the criminal to ensure he did not go to their bedroom. Having lost direct sight of he when exited, I feared that he may have used this chance to draw another weapon. When I next saw him, as I feared, he had a possible weapon in his hand. As the video shows, the light was very dim, but it was enough for me to realize it was my grandmother's silver tableware set. This set, as most flatware sets do, has several large knives for slicing ham turkey, etc, in other words a deadly weapon. I could not see his hands, and because of the damage to my hearing from my previous shots and still under the effects of the Tachy-Psych effect, I took his vocalizations to be him calling for help from his other accomplices. Fearing for my life at this instant, based on the totality of the situation and the information available to me at that moment, I fired to defend my life from a further deadly assault upon myself and my family."


Ace #2:

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. ....
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.

Reasonable belief of SBI/death? (Loaded AK's and sawed-off shotguns aimed in your direction by unfriendly hands tend to make folks believe that way..) Check.
BG's used FORCE to break in? Check.
Attack on the shooter;s dwelling? Check.
No duty to retreat? Check.
BG's attempted to use deadly FORCE to commit a crime? Check.
Is breaking and entering/burglary a Felony? IANAL but I believe so... = Forcible Felony =

My verdict is: Legally justifiable. Shooting #2 was as good of a shoot as #1.

Hopefully the shooter has a three-of-a-kind to go with Aces #1 & 2 so the resulting Full House will keep him out of the Big House!

 

[SMiller]

Bad guy number two was packing when he came in, why wouldn't he be packing on the way out? This guy could turn around and start blasting, that sure is a lot of risk, to much for me in my home! Remember these guys entered with a AK and shotgun!

 

[HICKMAN]

Am I the only one thinking that the second guy wouldn't have had time to "watch his buddy crumble"?.... there would already be two in the A zone...

as for this scenario, BG1 was a good shoot, BG2 was not. I would never take that chance with a prosecutor and grand jury, especially here in Marion County.

Then again, who's to say he didn't have a handgun in this pants...

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

If your in my house uninvited , your automatically a threat and will be shot until I feel your no longer a threat .

BG # 1 , I'm thinking your G2G . BG # 2 , I'm thinking some lower than whale $^!t prosecutor will seek to ruin the rest of your life .