Campus Carry Legislation in IN Senate

[J_Wales]

As a college student and a firearms owner, I can see both sides' point of view in this debate. While I certainly think there are plenty of citizens out there who would responsibly conduct themselves while lawfully carrying a firearm on a college campus, there are also a lot of individuals who could cause problems (not to mention harm to others) by failing to conduct themselves in a responsible manner while carrying at school.

I'm all for this legislation and I have already written my reps to ask their support for it, although I would like to see an important addition: mandatory qualification (or at least a safety class) in order to carry on a campus. If you're serious about personal defense and a responsible gun owner, neither should be a problem. All it takes is one ignorant Bubba flashing a handgun around and behaving stupidly for an accidental discharge to occur, which makes our hardfought efforts to portray ourselves as a responsible group for nought.

Those same arguments have been used by those that oppose citizens exercising their natural rights documented in the Second Amendment for ages and they have proven time and again to be unwarranted.

Those that are free to exercise their rights everywhere else should not be forced to surrender those rights simply. Ecause they step foot across some imaginary boundary.

I am 100% in favor of protecting those rights regardless of where an individual may find one's self and will be drafting hand written letters this weekend.

 

[J_Wales]

Thank you, Jordan, for your continuing efforts in battling the infringement of one's natural rights.

Feel free to PM me if there are other ways I can assist in your efforts.

 

[rhino]

First, this is a good idea. Second, when you say "allow," in your message, to you mean that it intends to prevent post-secondary educational institutions from stopping you? Or that you want the law to explicitly state that it's 100% "legal" to carry an otherwise legally possessed firearm on those campuses? I don't believe the state considers college campuses to be a place where our License to Carry Handgun is invalid.

I know there are some who choose to believe that colleges and unversities fall under "school" in the law, but that doesn't hold water in practice. If they did, then it would already have been against the law to carry on the IU campus when they made such a big deal out of changing their policy a few years ago by barring legal carry on their campus by students and staff initially, then had to include faculty when the inevitable fit was pitched by the bedwetters.

There are other colleges (like IUPUI) where people have documented (both students as well as a former IUPUI police officer) that you're not treated like a felon if you're "caught." In the stories I've read, the police escorted them to their station, had them lock their gun in a box there, and they were free to retrieve it on their way home. Yeah, not court documents, but there have been enough first person accounts that it's likely true.

My name is Jordan Stover and I am the State Director for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus in Indiana. Yesterday, a bill was introduced in the Indiana Senate that would allow concealed carry on campus. The text of the bill is here: Introduced Version, Senate Bill 0181

What is absolutely crucial--and the biggest way you can currently support the cause--is to write, email, and call the Senators listed below and tell them you support the bill and that it should get a hearing in the Judiciary committee. You can find their contact information here: Indiana General Assembly: Contact your Legislator

Hand written letters are always the best, but emails letting them know you support the cause or phone calls will work as well. Please do not take form letters from the internet -- take a few minutes to write an email and send it to the senators individually. Writing these Senators may actually make the difference in getting concealed carry on campus passed in 2012. Additionally, please forward this message to anyone you know that supports the cause.

Richard D. Bray (CHAIR)
Lonnie Randolph (RMM)
Joseph C. Zakas (RM)
Ron Alting
John Broden
Doug Eckerty
Susan Glick
Randy Head
Tim Lanane
Brent Steele

Please msg me if you have any questions. Thanks!

 

[BrentTheBoat]

Am I wrong but campus carry is legal, just against school policy, so you will be expelled? So if your not a student or faculty you can legally carry?

 

[Lammchop93]

Am I wrong but campus carry is legal, just against school policy, so you will be expelled? So if your not a student or faculty you can legally carry?

You are correct. The campus police, or staff can ask a non-student who is carrying to leave though, and they must or they will be arrested for trespassing. The law works just like any business or public facility.

 

[wpframe01]

On the training note: this is a HUGE topic on INGO with strong voices on both sides. I lean toward the "no requirement" side, simply because no other constitutionally protected rights require training (or a license, for that matter). I DO believe training is important, but is the individual's responsibility.

Well said. I no more approve of the idea of a firearms training class to exercise our constitutional right to bear arms than I do of a civics class in order to exercise our right to vote, or a public speaking class in order to exercise our right to free speech.

 

[g00n24]

Sent an email to each of them. Ill post what their responses are.

 

[J_Wales]

bump

 

[canav844]

I know there are some who choose to believe that colleges and unversities fall under "school" in the law, but that doesn't hold water in practice. If they did, then it would already have been against the law to carry on the IU campus when they made such a big deal out of changing their policy a few years ago by barring legal carry on their campus by students and staff initially, then had to include faculty when the inevitable fit was pitched by the bedwetters.

There are other colleges (like IUPUI) where people have documented (both students as well as a former IUPUI police officer) that you're not treated like a felon if you're "caught." In the stories I've read, the police escorted them to their station, had them lock their gun in a box there, and they were free to retrieve it on their way home. Yeah, not court documents, but there have been enough first person accounts that it's likely true.

IU and IUPUI are not Ivy Tech and if you read posts 15 and 20 you'll see that Ivy Tech is not only 3 times larger than any other of the state schools but that it also offers high school classes and is perpetually part of being used for "school function" which makes carry a Class D Felony regardless of whether or not the school is allowed to have a policy prohibiting firearms (which it doesn't).

 

[J_Wales]

So......

Have those of you that support the natural right to defense contacted the reps yet?

 

[Bunnykid68]

I think safety classes help make for better informed gun owners, and would help people weigh the very serious responsibility that comes with exercising our right to keep and bear arms. It's my one beef with Indiana's LTCH process, and the lack of a class is one reason why our permit may as well be toilet paper in states such as Ohio. As for concealed carry, in many ways, concealment is in the eye of the beholder, What you think is concealed may be blatantly obvious to someone else.

Further more, I don't think such safety classes should cost anyone any money. Campus P.D.'s and other L.E. agencies could, and should offer these type of things at no cost to the public, like they would a trigger lock.

I think the LTCH is toilet paper. We should not need it or training. A person is responsible for their own actions, not for something they may or may not do in the future.

 

[eldirector]

IU and IUPUI are not Ivy Tech and if you read posts 15 and 20 you'll see that Ivy Tech is not only 3 times larger than any other of the state schools but that it also offers high school classes and is perpetually part of being used for "school function" which makes carry a Class D Felony regardless of whether or not the school is allowed to have a policy prohibiting firearms (which it doesn't).

Are you sure Ivy Tech is a "school" by IC?

They are not a School Corp (IC 20-18-2-16)
They are not a Daycare (IC 12-17.2 and 31-27)
They are not a Private School (IC 20-18-2-12)
They are not HeadStart or a Preschool (though some campuses may have one nearby)

The only grey area I can see are dual-credit High School students taking college classes. If they are at a COLLEGE campus taking a COLLEGE class for COLLEGE credit, and their K12 School also gives them credit, is it really a School Function under IC? By Ivy Tech's website, no. They are Ivy students (have to be admitted and pay tuition), and any credit given by the high school is just by an agreement (it is NOT a K12 class).

Sorry for the threadjack!

And YES, I have written my State reps!

 

[Indy317]

IU and IUPUI are not Ivy Tech and if you read posts 15 and 20 you'll see that Ivy Tech is not only 3 times larger than any other of the state schools but that it also offers high school classes and is perpetually part of being used for "school function" which makes carry a Class D Felony regardless of whether or not the school is allowed to have a policy prohibiting firearms (which it doesn't).

Ivy Tech is a body corporate, which is the language used in the higher ed statue when talking about the formation of all state institutions of higher education. Also, your argument could apply to even IU, IUPUI, etc., as they may also host K-12 classes or events. This is an issue, but I lean to the K-12 law not applying to any property being owned and maintained by any higher educational institution. Even if a K-12 entity is paying to hold a class, are they really paying rent, or are they paying to just offer a service (GED classes, courses so former high school drops-outs can get a diploma, etc.?). Your points are valid, and ultimately it would be left up to the local LEOs to choose to arrest or not. The judge would also check for PC at the initial hearing, and the prosecutor would have to make a choice to continue with the charges or dismiss the case.

The best way to deal with this issue would be for an investigating LEO to type up their probable cause and submit it to the prosecutor's office. Let them read over all the laws and come to a conclusion. We are coming to a point where there are going to be so many "if this, than that," I could easily see most LEOs not wanting to make an outright arrest soley for this issue. Most will likely gather information, confiscate your weapon for evidence, and then speak with the prosecutor's office to determine charges.

On a side note, I could also see issues with daycare buildings, but the law specifically states "building or other structure." And said buildings and other structures have to be "owned or rented."

The laws are getting so complex, with many concepts left undefined in the Indiana Code, this just means defense attorneys will be able to throw all sorts of things at the case.

 

[J_Wales]

I think the LTCH is toilet paper. We should not need it or training. A person is responsible for their own actions, not for something they may or may not do in the future.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."


Yep.... nothing in there about LTCH, training, prints, or anything such thing.

There is, however, something in there about "shall not be infringed".

 

[Femme Assise]

As an upcoming college student, I fully support this bill. I can sympathize with the concerns of the opposition of this bill; however, by not passing this legislation, we are indirectly putting the lives of students at risk.

I think back to the tragedy at Virginia Tech. There were at least a dozen witnesses, all gun owners, who had the opportunity to end the fatal shooting and save the lives of their classmates; however, because of the stringent gun laws in place, none of them were permitted to carry a gun on campus.

 

[Grizhicks]

totenkopf -- While I know I'm in the minority, I agree with you. Training should be required for anyone getting their LTCH, even if it is nothing more than the basic NRA pistol course.

And, no, I do not believe that training or the LTCH is an infringement on my right. As I've said before, I don't want people who are mentally unstable or convicted felons, to being carrying.

Yes, I realize that training does not insure that the person will be safe with a weapon, but does increase the odds (at least in my opinion).

-- Greg

 

[J_Wales]

totenkopf -- While I know I'm in the minority, I agree with you. Training should be required for anyone getting their LTCH, even if it is nothing more than the basic NRA pistol course.

And, no, I do not believe that training or the LTCH is an infringement on my right. As I've said before, I don't want people who are mentally unstable or convicted felons, to being carrying.

Yes, I realize that training does not insure that the person will be safe with a weapon, but does increase the odds (at least in my opinion).

-- Greg

How, exactly, does a training course or a LTCH prevent mentally unstable people or convicted felons from carrying a gun?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

totenkopf -- While I know I'm in the minority, I agree with you. Training should be required for anyone getting their LTCH, even if it is nothing more than the basic NRA pistol course.

And, no, I do not believe that training or the LTCH is an infringement on my right. As I've said before, I don't want people who are mentally unstable or convicted felons, to being carrying.

Yes, I realize that training does not insure that the person will be safe with a weapon, but does increase the odds (at least in my opinion).

-- Greg

Gawd, it sickens me to read crap like this.

With "friends" like this, who needs enemies?

 

[mike8170]

Gawd, it sickens me to read crap like this.

With "friends" like this, who needs enemies?

+1

Since I recently started at Ivy Tech, I never realized there was no policy on firearms OTHER than firearms may not be stored in the campus locker. It is just something I never even considered looking up since I just keep one in my pack, and that is as concealed as you can get.

 

[sepe]

totenkopf -- While I know I'm in the minority, I agree with you. Training should be required for anyone getting their LTCH, even if it is nothing more than the basic NRA pistol course.

And, no, I do not believe that training or the LTCH is an infringement on my right. As I've said before, I don't want people who are mentally unstable or convicted felons, to being carrying.

Yes, I realize that training does not insure that the person will be safe with a weapon, but does increase the odds (at least in my opinion).

-- Greg

All the training in the world or having permits and licensing won't make it so people who are mentally unstable or convicted felons stop carrying.