Bravery or Stupidity on the West Side?

[Aaron1776]

Teen robbery suspects arrested after gunfight at west Indianapolis Burger King - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

By now you've all heard about the gun fight at BK on the West Side of Indy. The knee-jerk reaction of CCW supporters seems to always to cheer for the gun slinger. While I don't doubt the man's bravery or the legality of his actions, I have a hard time not criticising his tactics.
Three armed goons walk into a building you're walking out of, and you decide to follow them back in? You have to assume there's at least 1 more guy in a getaway car. (there were 2 apparently). So we're talking 3:1 odds and they have reserves. Moreover, you're in relatively tight quarters. (never seen a BK lobby big enough for me to feel comfortable in a 3:1 gun fight). With no loved ones inside to rescue, I don't really understand why it was worth risking life, limb, and liberty over a BK cash register.
What would you do? What circumstances would tempt you to go in there?

 

[PRasko]

I'd have gotten to my car and called the police.

I'm not superman, and have people that depend on me.

 

[chipbennett]

I would have called the authorities from a safe vantage point, and not intervened directly.

I have no problems, however, with the choices made by the person there; I will certainly not criticize him.

 

[Tanfodude]

I'd be a witness and call 911 for robbery in progress, take note of the plates since I'm outside the vicinity. If I was inside the vicinity, it'll be a different story.

 

[Fizzerpilot]

If I believed that loss of life would be the outcome if I didn't intervene, then I'd go back.

However, it's Burger King. No armed resistance expected. These guys weren't there to kill anyone, so I'd call the PoPo.

Measured responses, are often the best responses.

Now, if these fools walked into my home, the gloves wild come off.

 

[churchmouse]

Well folks.....I would guess you had to be there to make that distinction. Should I stay or should I go. To each in their own skills and ability's.

I have people that depend on me as well. So does about every LEO who may respond.

Growing up and being bullied a lot until I learned to push back I then became the defender of those being bullied. A lot.

That said, I would most likely asses and proceed. Meaning go back inside. Those folks who work there have dependents as well.

I can see the point that getting to a safe place with 911 on the phone might be the way "But"......it has become a sport to shoot those being victimized. There is no way I could turn my back on that right or wrong. Just would not set right with me.

 

[bobzilla]

I would have called the authorities from a safe vantage point, and not intervened directly.

I have no problems, however, with the choices made by the person there; I will certainly not criticize him.

All of this. Some people want to actively participate in cleaning up their neighborhoods. Some want the authorities to do it.

 

[bwframe]

Waiting to hear BBI's informed breakdown of this situation and analysis.

 

[GBuck]

I kind of thought the same thing. I'm not criticizing by any means, he made his decision and went with it. I don't think it's the same decision I would have made though.

I'm curious how long it takes to figure out who the guy was.. Surely any instructor worth his salt would be a member here.

 

[chipbennett]

All of this. Some people want to actively participate in cleaning up their neighborhoods. Some want the authorities to do it.

Did he accomplish (or facilitate) the goal of "cleaning up" his neighborhood? Or was it the police (i.e. the authorities) who later caught the thugs that did that?

 

[yepthatsme]

I'll surely bet that those thugs will be thinking twice about robbing another business after being confronted by an armed citizen. I'll bet that caught them completely off guard. Thank God the good Samaritan wasn't shot in the process. If he was an instructor, I'm sure he probably had the wherewithal to approach them from a protected position.

I'm afraid that wouldn't have been me. I would have to call 911 from a protected position. However, I'm not sure how I would react if they began shooting. That might just push me over the edge. I would have a heck of a time living with myself if I did nothing while innocent people were being harmed or murdered.

 

[MCgrease08]

Double dupe.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...3137-robbery-stopped-firearms-instructor.html

 

[Aaron1776]

Well folks.....I would guess you had to be there to make that distinction. Should I stay or should I go. To each in their own skills and ability's.

I have people that depend on me as well. So does about every LEO who may respond.

Growing up and being bullied a lot until I learned to push back I then became the defender of those being bullied. A lot.

That said, I would most likely asses and proceed. Meaning go back inside. Those folks who work there have dependents as well.

I can see the point that getting to a safe place with 911 on the phone might be the way "But"......it has become a sport to shoot those being victimized. There is no way I could turn my back on that right or wrong. Just would not set right with me.

I can certainly understand that thought process, but let me pose you this question: How does it help them to enter yourself into a tactical situation that is so obviously against you? You can't save anyone when you're dead.
This guy just got lucky and learned a free lesson.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Waiting to hear BBI's informed breakdown of this situation and analysis.

Probably going to be one of those "after the trial/pleas" sort of things, sorry.

In general, I would ask the following questions:
1) Do I have the ability to start help (ie 911) prior to engaging?
2) Can I see where every suspect is (and do I know how many there are)?
3) If I cannot see every suspect, are there potential hostages?
4) If I can see every suspect, is someone in imminent danger?
5) If so, will potentially starting a gunfight reduce or increase that danger?

There's a reason that when we do covert work we do not interrupt the robbery without a very good reason. A take down, or if it comes to that a gun fight, in the parking lot is better than in the building. Sometimes your hand is forced, though. There are undoubtedly lessons to be drawn from this, but the specifics will have to wait. I'd take media accounts with a tablespoon of salt, however.

 

[bwframe]

Probably going to be one of those "after the trial/pleas" sort of things, sorry.

In general, I would ask the following questions:
1) Do I have the ability to start help (ie 911) prior to engaging?
2) Can I see where every suspect is (and do I know how many there are)?
3) If I cannot see every suspect, are there potential hostages?
4) If I can see every suspect, is someone in imminent danger?
5) If so, will potentially starting a gunfight reduce or increase that danger?

There's a reason that when we do covert work we do not interrupt the robbery without a very good reason. A take down, or if it comes to that a gun fight, in the parking lot is better than in the building. Sometimes your hand is forced, though. There are undoubtedly lessons to be drawn from this, but the specifics will have to wait. I'd take media accounts with a tablespoon of salt, however.

Thank you sir!
Your input much appreciated, even with the limitations. Very helpful guidance.

 

[churchmouse]

I can certainly understand that thought process, but let me pose you this question: How does it help them to enter yourself into a tactical situation that is so obviously against you? You can't save anyone when you're dead.
This guy just got lucky and learned a free lesson.

I will pose this to you.....

In a time that the robbers shoot the people they are robbing just for sport how can we not know that he saved lives in his actions.
So many variables in this. So many things that we can only guess as to how this played out.

No, sacrificing oneself is not the answer.

There are a lot of things that we do not know about each other. We are just print on a screen in here.
Those that know me, grew up with me understand I would not bull rush into this. Facing down multiple adversary's is not a new thing. Add in the robbery and yes that part is new.

 

[numbaonecoltsfan]

Probably going to be one of those "after the trial/pleas" sort of things, sorry.

In general, I would ask the following questions:
1) Do I have the ability to start help (ie 911) prior to engaging?
2) Can I see where every suspect is (and do I know how many there are)?
3) If I cannot see every suspect, are there potential hostages?
4) If I can see every suspect, is someone in imminent danger?
5) If so, will potentially starting a gunfight reduce or increase that danger?

There's a reason that when we do covert work we do not interrupt the robbery without a very good reason. A take down, or if it comes to that a gun fight, in the parking lot is better than in the building. Sometimes your hand is forced, though. There are undoubtedly lessons to be drawn from this, but the specifics will have to wait. I'd take media accounts with a tablespoon of salt, however.

Fantastic input can't wait to see more on this incredible learning opportunity
This(being caught in the middle of an armed robbery) is actually the stuff of my nightmares and honestly one of the biggest reasons I carry everywhere. I understand the guy kind of put himself in the middle but I cannot say with any certainty at all I would or would not have done the same thing. I am interested to hear more details so that I can learn everything there is to learn about this situation.

 

[Vigilant]

In all three btl!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I will pose this to you.....

In a time that the robbers shoot the people they are robbing just for sport how can we not know that he saved lives in his actions.

That's the extreme rarity, particularly among compliant victims. If you're playing the odds and you can't see specific reasons to counter those odds, I'd just refer back to my earlier post. Does making it into a gun fight make it more or less safe?

Now, when we do covert stuff we have the knowledge of how they've behaved in past robberies. If someone has done 10 robberies and not hurt anyone yet and isn't escalating, then you can be pretty sure that number 11 won't be different unless you enter the wild card. That's why we don't interrupt, as mentioned above. As an intervening Joe RandomGuy, you won't have that background info. IMO, it's why learning pre-attack indicators and body language are vital to making these calls in an educated way.

 

[bwframe]

That's the extreme rarity, particularly among compliant victims. If you're playing the odds and you can't see specific reasons to counter those odds, I'd just refer back to my earlier post. Does making it into a gun fight make it more or less safe?

Now, when we do covert stuff we have the knowledge of how they've behaved in past robberies. If someone has done 10 robberies and not hurt anyone yet and isn't escalating, then you can be pretty sure that number 11 won't be different unless you enter the wild card. That's why we don't interrupt, as mentioned above. As an intervening Joe RandomGuy, you won't have that background info. IMO, it's why learning pre-attack indicators and body language are vital to making these calls in an educated way.

Got some links to good study on these areas?