Bombs? Really?

[halfmileharry]

#RobotLivesMatter

I hadn't thought of that. Now Skynet will be protesting. I don't trust them either.

 

[Rookie]

Please peruse the photos in this link: GRAPHIC New Photos Of Dead Dallas Shooter And His Gun Surface | The Federalist Papers


If they are genuine, they clearly show the guy was not killed by an explosive. He was killed by whatever was between him and the explosive.

If I understand correctly, the concussive blast alone could have killed him, and I'm okay with that...

Some information here.

pressure - Is a bomb's shockwave strong enough to kill? - Physics Stack Exchange

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If I understand correctly, the concussive blast alone could have killed him, and I'm okay with that...

Some information here.

pressure - Is a bomb's shockwave strong enough to kill? - Physics Stack Exchange

Yeah, I posted in another thread:

I'm not an expert but as a former Combat Engineer have a bit of knowledge on the matter. 1 lb of C4 isn't a huge amount. I wouldn't expect there to be a ton of external damage to the body. We were taught to make a booby trap that would kill solely due to lung damage, so just because the exterior isn't sausage doesn't mean much.

In broad strokes, the detonation velocity of C-4 is roughly 8,000 meters per second, so it's a pretty fast explosive. (Black powder is well below 1,000 meters per second) It makes a very fast pressure spike in an enclosed space. That compresses a bunch of air really fast as it tries to push the air out of the way. That compressed air does work, like liquids do in hydraulics, as it contacts things. The outside of the body may look pretty good because skin can be compressed quite a bit without damage. Organs that can't be compressed much without injury will take the brunt of the damage, and things like "blast lung" are quite deadly.

Blast lung injury. - PubMed - NCBI says it in medical speak:

High-order explosive detonations result in near instantaneous transformation of the explosive material into a highly pressurized gas, releasing energy at supersonic speeds. This results in the formation of a blast wave that travels out from the epicenter of the blast. Primary blast injuries are characterized by anatomical and physiological changes from the force generated by the blast wave impacting the body's surface, and affect primarily gas-containing structures (lungs, gastrointestinal tract, ears). "Blast lung" is a clinical diagnosis and is characterized as respiratory difficulty and hypoxia without obvious external injury to the chest.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Also, you can watch Mythbusters episode #162 if you want to learn more about it. They use a 3 lb charge, but out on a range with nothing to contain the pressure like a room would, and it was still at certainly lethal levels at 10' and injury from pressure alone up to 20'.

Explosives are much more efficient in enclosed spaces when the shock wave is contained or funneled. See explosion in a trench vs open air: Truly Trashed Trench | MythBusters | Discovery

In a mostly enclosed room, it's going to be even more pronounced.

 

[Rookie]

Also, you can watch Mythbusters episode #162 if you want to learn more about it. They use a 3 lb charge, but out on a range with nothing to contain the pressure like a room would, and it was still at certainly lethal levels at 10' and injury from pressure alone up to 20'.

Explosives are much more efficient in enclosed spaces when the shock wave is contained or funneled. See explosion in a trench vs open air: Truly Trashed Trench | MythBusters | Discovery

In a mostly enclosed room, it's going to be even more pronounced.

Another example, a fire cracker in an open hand verses a closed fist.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Yeah, I posted in another thread:

I'm not an expert but as a former Combat Engineer have a bit of knowledge on the matter. 1 lb of C4 isn't a huge amount. I wouldn't expect there to be a ton of external damage to the body. We were taught to make a booby trap that would kill solely due to lung damage, so just because the exterior isn't sausage doesn't mean much.

In broad strokes, the detonation velocity of C-4 is roughly 8,000 meters per second, so it's a pretty fast explosive. (Black powder is well below 1,000 meters per second) It makes a very fast pressure spike in an enclosed space. That compresses a bunch of air really fast as it tries to push the air out of the way. That compressed air does work, like liquids do in hydraulics, as it contacts things. The outside of the body may look pretty good because skin can be compressed quite a bit without damage. Organs that can't be compressed much without injury will take the brunt of the damage, and things like "blast lung" are quite deadly.

Blast lung injury. - PubMed - NCBI says it in medical speak:

High-order explosive detonations result in near instantaneous transformation of the explosive material into a highly pressurized gas, releasing energy at supersonic speeds. This results in the formation of a blast wave that travels out from the epicenter of the blast. Primary blast injuries are characterized by anatomical and physiological changes from the force generated by the blast wave impacting the body's surface, and affect primarily gas-containing structures (lungs, gastrointestinal tract, ears). "Blast lung" is a clinical diagnosis and is characterized as respiratory difficulty and hypoxia without obvious external injury to the chest.

Also, you can watch Mythbusters episode #162 if you want to learn more about it. They use a 3 lb charge, but out on a range with nothing to contain the pressure like a room would, and it was still at certainly lethal levels at 10' and injury from pressure alone up to 20'.

Explosives are much more efficient in enclosed spaces when the shock wave is contained or funneled. See explosion in a trench vs open air: Truly Trashed Trench | MythBusters | Discovery

In a mostly enclosed room, it's going to be even more pronounced.

You're a pretty frightening man just by knowing this $#!+. Somebody needs to know it, but damn the information is ugly. How ugly is the implementation of it.

In my ignorance I saw that the man in the picture still had his lips, eyelids and fingers. I supposed that indicated his distance or shelter from the blast. I had never considered the air pressure spike but your info here makes it obvious. In my mind's eye I picture the condensation ring you see in war footage of HE ordinance detonations.

Yow, mama.

 

[mammynun]

You're a pretty frightening man just by knowing this $#!+. Somebody needs to know it, but damn the information is ugly. How ugly is the implementation of it.

In my ignorance I saw that the man in the picture still had his lips, eyelids and fingers. I supposed that indicated his distance or shelter from the blast. I had never considered the air pressure spike but your info here makes it obvious. In my mind's eye I picture the condensation ring you see in war footage of HE ordinance detonations.

Yow, mama.

Nah, we're not frightening. We were trained at some point because someone thought it was a good idea. And that someone was the rest of our nation whether they realized just what, exactly, we were learning. And given the fantastical skills attributed to the 12W Sniper who trained to "shoot and move" while laying bricks and hanging drywall, the public has no idea who is taught what.

[video=youtube;1UVD-UyZ6qw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UVD-UyZ6qw[/video]

It's going to be an unfortunate day when soldier/marine/airman who was actually trained in a combat arms MOS pulls this ****. And it will eventually happen given the sheer numbers we have have produced and the fact that some people are simply Bad. In the late 80's three guys in my platoon went home to PA on leave where the decided it would be a good idea to stab someone in the head, drive them and their car into the woods and burn it. One of them went to our COC when he got back to Bragg, and the other two went to jail. I suspect they're still there, and they should be. Point is that they executed a hasty ambush and probably would have gotten away with it had the (supposedly) minor participant not come clean.

Me? My "notebooks" were all put together by the Government Printing Office.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Sure we will send you a couple bottles of water and say, you must be hungry, how's about a side of ribs in a lil styrofoam box to keep it warm?

OK..........on it's way now...............KABOOM!

 

[Dead Duck]

Sure we will send you a couple bottles of water and say, you must be hungry, how's about a side of ribs in a lil styrofoam box to keep it warm?

OK..........on it's way now...............KABOOM!

Those Ribs are Da Bomb!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

In my ignorance I saw that the man in the picture still had his lips, eyelids and fingers. I supposed that indicated his distance or shelter from the blast. I had never considered the air pressure spike but your info here makes it obvious.

The plastic mag on his AK-74 was without a scratch.

The sapper-copper that set the charge knew what he was doing.

 

[mammynun]

The plastic mag on his AK-74 was without a scratch.

The sapper-copper that set the charge knew what he was doing.

That's one possible scenario of why he looked so good while approaching room temperature. Another reason may be that the DPD wanted to preserve as much evidence as possible and selected a charge on the low end of the range. In either case I feel certain there were M4's pointed at him shortly after detonation in case they went too low. Very shortly.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Pay-per-view..... Genius

I still say we forget "the wall." Its too expensive. Instead create a DMZ on the southern border like you find surrounding high security prisons, and top it off with landmines and auto targeting MGs. Then install lots of cameras and sell PPV access to pay for it. I get the feeling we would run a surplus on that project.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Dallas Police chief on using robot bomb to kill attack suspect: "This wasn’t an ethical dilemma. I’d do it again."

He's speaking now

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Dallas Police chief on using robot bomb to kill attack suspect: "This wasn’t an ethical dilemma. I’d do it again."

He's speaking now

It sure is exactly that for me, an ethical dilemma exactly. And for a few of us in this thread also even if we are in a bit of a minority. If I don't draw a line somewhere then there will be no line at all. That's the first question; Line or none. Then exactly where the line is to be.

 

[DRob]

Did some of you not read my post about the charge not being intended to kill the guy. It was intended to breach the door and just happened to set off the bomb the bad guy had. Perhaps you would prefer they just sent officers to kick the door down so he could shoot a few more. Please advise if you've seen anything indicating they even knew the bad guy had a bomb.

As for ethics, if you think it was unethical or not playing fair, all I can say is WTF are you thinking? It was a gun battle! I'm sure you naysayers would concern yourself with ethics if you were in the same situation!

 

[mammynun]

It sure is exactly that for me, an ethical dilemma exactly. And for a few of us in this thread also even if we are in a bit of a minority. If I don't draw a line somewhere then there will be no line at all. That's the first question; Line or none. Then exactly where the line is to be.

Line.
The exact same line for a .308 to the lacrimal bone.

 

[Fargo]

It sure is exactly that for me, an ethical dilemma exactly. And for a few of us in this thread also even if we are in a bit of a minority. If I don't draw a line somewhere then there will be no line at all. That's the first question; Line or none. Then exactly where the line is to be.

Its not an ethical dilemma to me at all but rate one of prudence.

As I said above, I'm not onboard with LE stocking explosive antipersonell munitions and devices. However, I have zero reservations upon them using their EOD charges on a suspect under these conditions. When one is engaged in intentionally murdering innocents, I don't believe you are entitled to a "sporting chance".

 

[Cameramonkey]

It sure is exactly that for me, an ethical dilemma exactly. And for a few of us in this thread also even if we are in a bit of a minority. If I don't draw a line somewhere then there will be no line at all. That's the first question; Line or none. Then exactly where the line is to be.

You want a dark line even when life isnt black and white?

Its not an ethical dilemma to me at all but rate one of prudence.

As I said above, I'm not onboard with LE stocking explosive antipersonell munitions and devices. However, I have zero reservations upon them using their EOD charges on a suspect under these conditions. When one is engaged in intentionally murdering innocents, I don't believe you are entitled to a "sporting chance".

And its one thing when you are negotiating with an individual who may have committed a crime days or weeks ago, and they are operating on tips and or limited evidence and the person just wont come out of the house. (but they arent shooting at the cops)

Its entirely another when you have all but a confession after a firefight shortly after they kill and the negotiators are chatting with him. (and he has made it clear he has no remorse, wants to kill more, wishes other had joined him, etc)

There has to come a point where "suicide by cop" is granted by automation vs risking valuable officers' lives. I wouldnt expect ANY of our INGO blue brethren to have to face that POS and possibly die trying to fulfill his death wish because he wanted to take out "just one more" on the way down. Do I want Drone strikes whether winged, rotored, or tracked? No. But if a tracked drone delivers a breaching charge and POS just happened to be in the way, so be it. (or in this case, what he wanted to use to blow up others accidentally got activated by the charge)

So hypothetical since a breaching charge is a no-no to neutralize a VERY hostile target: From the looks of the rubble he was holed up in the stairwell behind a block wall.
1: Would an ammo can or two from a turret mounted 50 cal fired blindly THROUGH the block to take him out have been any better?
2: How about several well placed shots through the wall from a Barret 50 using some of the new FLIR/backscatter tech that allows imaging through solid walls? (Spotter: "Aim 6 blocks from the left and 5 blocks up. Three rounds.")

And like I said, this is hypothetical, so dont get your panties bunched and call straw man simply because they may not have these tools today. I'm just trying to figure out when/what tools are acceptable to neutralize a target thats not going down peacefully.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I draw that line at the line the .gov has said I, as a civilian, must legally abide by. If it's not ok for me to utilize in a legitimate self defense situation, it shouldn't be ok for an officer to use. If they need more, call in the national guard, or any other ACTUAL military force.

First of all, I wonder if Posse Comitatus wouldn't apply to this situation?? Secondly, if the National Guard were called in, what makes you think they would have the expertise to construct and deploy an explosive device? Except for EOD, I'd be surprised if any purely Guard personnel were experienced in placing explosives for the purpose, and if there were, very likely they'd be the police officers on the police EOD squad wearing their National Guard hats. Would that be any better? The results would be the same, the personnel would likely be the same, and the tactic would be the same using the same sort of equipment. So what, besides a technicality, would be the difference?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Something I haven't seen in this thread is possible deterrent. And maybe there isn't. But if you went in to rob a bank knowing someone might blow you up, maybe you would think again. If this becomes more standard, perhaps the psychological effect will wear off. But for now, no one wants to wind up as a red smear.

I don't think this should be part of the argument for or against, just a possible, and happy, byproduct.

I think the possibility of being blown up as a result of committing an unlawful act is probably not on most criminal's radar.