Blue guns (gun replica)

[redpitbull44]

By yourself for firearm manipulation drills (clearing jams, reloading, drawing, etc) the real thing is acceptable to me.

With another person, hand to hand, etc, training replica/ blue gun gets the nod.

 

[Sylvain]

Bump.

 

[rhino]

[STRIKE]Unless you have unusual circumstances, I don't think they have much utility for
practicing your draws. There are a variety of ways to utilize your gun while
practicing draws and presentations that won't result in undue risk to yourself
or anyone else. [/STRIKE]

For retention training and practice, however, I think inert training replicas are mandatory. I would not use anything other than an inert piece of plastic for that application.

Since this topic reappeared, I got a chance to reread what I wrote above. I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time, but I would say it the same way now. I think Blue Guns are a good idea for a variety of uses, practicing draws being one of them.

I've also learned since then that you have to be careful when practicing retention and take-away techniques with inert replicas that have intact trigger guards!

 

[Sylvain]

Since this topic reappeared, I got a chance to reread what I wrote above. I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time, but I would say it the same way now. I think Blue Guns are a good idea for a variety of uses, practicing draws being one of them.

I've also learned since then that you have to be careful when practicing retention and take-away techniques with inert replicas that have intact trigger guards!

Yes, you can easily break your finger.
You can either remove the trigger guard or just keep your finger off the trigger while doing take-aways.

Im still not sure what model to get if I am to get one.
Some models are like $70 for an inert piece of plastic.
And you have so many companies doing the same product now, blue guns, ASP red guns, blackhawk training guns that are grey, many "no brand" models.
It's like every color of the rainbow and they all have different prices for what looks to be the same thing.
Maybe the weight is not the same, I dont know.
There are so models where you can also remove the magazine.

 

[Sylvain]

 

[the1kidd03]

I could make them for considerably cheaper if we had a "goup buy fund" or something set up to cover costs......that's not cheaper than buying only one, but if we had several that wanted them splitting the cost could come out to save everyone money

 

[jdhaines]

I use the blackhawk versions in grey as they are the cheapest. I practice drawing using my regular gun. Its still loaded if I'm doing my normal everyday drawstroke, and usually moving somewhat slowly. If I'm doing anything out of the ordinary, it gets unloaded. Combatives, retention, etc gets a blue gun.

By the way I'm glad to see an NRA instructor appreciate the use of a blue guns. In my instructor training class, among other crazy things, the use of a blue gun was absolutely not allowed, must be kept pointing downrange, not to be used in a dangerous manner, etc. The instructor threatened to kick me out if I "did that again" when I tossed her a blue gun so that she could demonstrate the technique she was so helplessly trying to describe. The problem was in my group the only "safe" direction was toward the ceiling. You tell me how to teach reloading a revolver when you can only point it at the sky?!

If its a small group or a couple people I don't mind a real gun with a training barrel. If its a larger group I prefer all blue guns.

 

[WETSU]

I use blueguns a lot. Both for teaching and for weapon retention. I have destroyed airsoft pistols in retentions training. Thats a NO GO. Airsoft is okay for FoF, when there is less risk of going hands on. If thats in the plan, Sims or UTM is the way to go.

 

[bwframe]

I need to pick up a couple more blue guns for BUG practice. Anyone shop these lately?

Week hand drawing/holstering is especially handy with a blue gun where fit and form are important, weight not so much. The same with transitioning between hands and one handed reloads.

When I'm in class, I prefer that all participants use BLUE guns. Blue means training in my mind. It means stop you without harming you. I do not care for gray guns, training barrels or anything that resembles real weapons.

I had an instructor call me out for sloppy blue gun handling. He was right. While inert, they are training tools not toys. Muzzle discipline should be followed accordingly, the exception being toward a threat within a training scenario.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Blackhawk! dummy guns are the best value for money...if they make one for your gun. Their range is very limited [Glock 17, Beretta M9, Sig P226R, 1911R & S&W 640]. They are true to size and retail for around dealer cost on a Ring's Blue Gun. Around $30.

Ring's are my second choice. They do vary batch to batch on dimensions. I have one Glock 17 that will only fit in about 1/3 of my kydex holsters because it is on the thick side. Works great in all my leather and duty gear, though. The others fit everything.
Ring's is the grand old man of the dummy gun world, as their main business was making props for Hollywood. Street price seems to hover around $50. Dealer cost used to be around $30 and a $100 buy-in, so group buys may be a viable option.

I'm not a fan of ASP red guns. They are oversized to the point that a lot of them will not fit into concealed carry holsters. The price has come down to be competitive with Ring's. So they can be had around the $50 pricepoint.

Another option is the aluminum dummy guns from Duncan's Custom. They were designed as holster molds and are what a bunch of folks use when making holsters. They are $50 a pop but are absolutely bombproof. duncansoutdoor.com

 

[Shay]

I use Ring's blue guns in many of my classes. Unless there's a reason for something to come out of the barrel of the gun, a blue gun usually works just fine.

Paul, I'm a Ring's dealer and the buy-in is considerably higher. I actually have most common carry models for sale at my classes to keep students from having to order their own.

If you think blue gun handguns are expensive, start buying long guns.....

 

[Paul Gomez]

Paul, I'm a Ring's dealer and the buy-in is considerably higher. I actually have most common carry models for sale at my classes to keep students from having to order their own.

Good to know, Shay. It's been six or seven years since I dealt directly with Ring's and I seemed to recall some big change on the cusp back then.

 

[jdhaines]

If you think blue gun handguns are expensive, start buying long guns.....

Speaking of that...is there any benefit for an individual person to own a long gun "blue-gun"? I can see a few trainers who may use them for scenarios owning a couple...but I'm not sure I can see dropping $180ish for practice. Does anyone have one and actually get good use out of it?

I've seen a few hillbilly-jobbed simulated rifles using pipes, padding, wood, etc that seemed to work alright. The picture below is from MATC. Would something like this get normal people by? The instructor's first name is "Chris". I'm not sure of the last name (Evans maybe?). I wasn't at this conference.

 

[Paul Gomez]

That's Chris Fry of MDTS. He built those things to support combative training with the carbine. They work very well in that role.

 

[Shay]

These are the pistols I currently have in stock.

Like I said, I have most common carry guns....

 

[JAH]

Have used them for Military (riot control) and Martial arts training (disarm) But then I made wooden ones without trigger guards (to preclude broken digits) Have thought about buying one for training tho.

 

[Shay]

Speaking of that...is there any benefit for an individual person to own a long gun "blue-gun"? I can see a few trainers who may use them for scenarios owning a couple...but I'm not sure I can see dropping $180ish for practice. Does anyone have one and actually get good use out of it?

I've seen a few hillbilly-jobbed simulated rifles using pipes, padding, wood, etc that seemed to work alright. The picture below is from MATC. Would something like this get normal people by? The instructor's first name is "Chris". I'm not sure of the last name (Evans maybe?). I wasn't at this conference.

I like the training gear I use to be as close to the real thing as possible. I have some of the Blackhawk! dummy guns and they feel unnaturally slippery. It's not the end of the world, but for certain applications, I won't use them because of that.

My student blue guns are all made by Rings.

For long guns, it's ridiculous how much the dummy guns cost, but I want the gear I use for classes to be as realistic as possible. Subtle changes in gear cause changes in techniques and at some point you may no longer be training what you think you are training. I could wrap a broom handle in tape and it would probably server 75% of the function of a blue gun, but I bite the bullet and spring for the actual copy.

It's a constant struggle. I made the decision last year to purchase some Glock 17T's so that I would have factory-marked dedicated training guns. I could have saved a few thousand dollars by using airsoft, but I think it makes my training more realistic and that ultimately is my guiding principle.

 

[Shay]

I guess I didn't answer your original question.

Yes, if you own a gun for defense, you should also own a blue gun copy of it.

Let me throw out another option over buying a inert long gun:
Rifle Training Bolt :: Training Accessories :: Blade-Tech Industries

Old INGO thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...554-new_ar_training_bolt_from_blade_tech.html

FULL DISCLOSURE - I helped design this thing.

 

[amhenry]

I have a bunch of the Duncans Outdoors aluminum guns that Paul Gomez mentioned, and while they're certainly sturdy, I found them to be lousy for holster making, which was my primary purpose in getting them. Also, if you intend to train with a weapon mounted light... Duncans gun molds don't include the rail slots. You have to go back yourself and either file or mill in the slots. Also, a number of the ones that I purchased had rough/sharp spots. I was thoroughly unimpressed.

I do have several of the Blackhawk training guns, and they are a distinctly different texture-- less rubbery, slicker surface.

I have handled the ASP red guns, and didn't like them as well as the Ring's blue guns, so I've never bothered buying any.

Botach Tactical was a consistently good source for the Blue Guns. Current price is $40 each.

Rings has also released a few training guns that include a molded plastic tac light.

 

[jdhaines]

That's Chris Fry of MDTS. He built those things to support combative training with the carbine. They work very well in that role.

Thanks. Now that you've said it, I remember seeing that name around TPI.

I guess I didn't answer your original question.

Yes, if you own a gun for defense, you should also own a blue gun copy of it.

Let me throw out another option over buying a inert long gun:
Rifle Training Bolt :: Training Accessories :: Blade-Tech Industries

Old INGO thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...554-new_ar_training_bolt_from_blade_tech.html

FULL DISCLOSURE - I helped design this thing.

That training bolt looks like a great tool, thanks for the link. I agree on the Glock 17Ts. After seeing them at ECQC I was hooked. Someone posted about a huge lot of them going up for sale and I tried to buy three, but they were gone within an hour. I keep looking though. What a great training tool. Lots of adrenaline as well because damn they can hurt.