Bloomington Police purchase of armored truck sparks debate

[BehindBlueI's]

That really wasn't the intent of either of those posts. I don't care if cops want to get tacticool. I just care about how much it costs.

No, that's the problem. "Tacticool". It's a toy and we can't be trusted to use it properly. Drug warrants and finding things to do with it and lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Cost is a stalking horse.

School shooting: It's not the gun that's the problem, it's the people.
Armored car argument: They'll use the equipment to violate our rights!

Pretty much sum it up?

 

[Route 45]

Oh, it's cost. "For just the price of a cup of coffee a day, you can keep 10 children fed." Why doesn't everyone do that? Because it is a marginal expense. The expense on top of all the other ones. And then along comes the next one. And then if Monroe County gets one, why not Morgan? I mean, they have cops and kids too.

I suppose that's up to the county in question and their residents. I wasn't aware that Losantville straddled the Monroe/Morgan county border.

 

[Woobie]

No idea. The first time it was used the suspect gave himself up when it arrived. Does your crystal ball say what would have happened if a soft skin vehicle would have been used?

Lol, I'm not the one making the "what if" argument. I don't need a crystal ball.

Morgan county's MRAP has been a great investment because _____ lives were saved, therefore the expense to Monroe county seems justified.

Or maybe it was a huge waste of money and we probably should quit doing that.

 

[Woobie]

I suppose that's up to the county in question and their residents. I wasn't aware that Losantville straddled the Monroe/Morgan county border.

And I'm sure they received no state or federal funds this year.

 

[phylodog]

That really wasn't the intent of either of those posts. I don't care if cops want to get tacticool. I just care about how much it costs.

Ooooh, tacticool. Anything LE does which looks remotely similar to something the military might do gets dismissed as LE trying to be the military. Wanna guess who the US Militay turned to for training when they realized they were gonna have to go house to house searching for people? Yeah, it wasn’t the military. I guess once the military started doing it LE became old news and insignificant. Forget that the tip of the spear military units used to come to the large metro agencies for real world experience in urban tactics. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Woobie]

No, that's the problem. "Tacticool". It's a toy and we can't be trusted to use it properly. Drug warrants and finding things to do with it and lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Cost is a stalking horse.

School shooting: It's not the gun that's the problem, it's the people.
Armored car argument: They'll use the equipment to violate our rights!

Pretty much sum it up?

Not really. I don't care if they ride unicorns to work and sprinkle pixie dust on the sidewalk. I don't care if they want to be tacticool. I don't care if they all go back to model 19's and bus driver caps like Barney Fife. I just think the expense of whatever they do should be justifiable to tax payers.

And I know getting called out on this stuff is really uncomfortable, hence the deflection like your post here, the emotion of "but dead cops!" shown earlier, or any of the other defense mechanisms. The hard reality is, not every agency needs one. Some do. Most do not.

 

[Route 45]

And I'm sure they received no state or federal funds this year.

Taken against a state or federal budget, $225,000 is a rounding error.

 

[Woobie]

Ooooh, tacticool. Anything LE does which looks remotely similar to something the military might do gets dismissed as LE trying to be the military. Wanna guess who the US Militay turned to for training when they realized they were gonna have to go house to house searching for people? Yeah, it wasn’t the military. I guess once the military started doing it LE became old news and insignificant. Forget that the tip of the spear military units used to come to the large metro agencies for real world experience in urban tactics. Ignorance is bliss.

What you say is common knowledge. Military and law enforcement have been cross training for quite some time, to the benefit of both. But that isn't really germain to the discussion. Like I said, I don't care what they want to look like. Is it worth the expense?

 

[phylodog]

Not really. I don't care if they ride unicorns to work and sprinkle pixie dust on the sidewalk. I don't care if they want to be tacticool. I don't care if they all go back to model 19's and bus driver caps like Barney Fife. I just think the expense of whatever they do should be justifiable to tax payers.

And I know getting called out on this stuff is really uncomfortable, hence the deflection like your post here, the emotion of "but dead cops!" shown earlier, or any of the other defense mechanisms. The hard reality is, not every agency needs one. Some do. Most do not.

Your arrogance, believing that your military experience is remotely comparable to modern day law enforcement responsibilities, is laughable. Believing that your military experience entitles you to talk down to LE is well beyond misinformed.

 

[Woobie]

Taken against a state or federal budget, $225,000 is a rounding error.

$225,000 x 92 counties is a rounding error? Sure that's divided over a few years. And the costs are divided among levels of government. Every single layer of which comes from us. But add that to everything else we are asked to pay for. Eventually you've got enough rounding errors to blow the budget.

 

[Woobie]

Your arrogance, believing that your military experience is remotely comparable to modern day law enforcement responsibilities, is laughable. Believing that your military experience entitles you to talk down to LE is well beyond misinformed.

When have I talked down to you, any other cop here, or about law enforcement in general? I really mean I do not care what image they want to project. I just want to know if the expense is justifiable.

Please read what you just posted, and show me how what you are describing fits anything I have said here.

 

[jsharmon7]

Cost. Militarization of police. Lack of necessity. Ideological issues with the drug war. I feel like the argument against it keeps changing.

My opinion on the matter is that any stand-off/barricaded subject/etc. will likely require some type of armored vehicle. What I find interesting is that multiple people in this thread have direct LE-experience in these types of situations and we are all in agreement that they are necessary. I think we're also all in agreement that nobody has seen any examples of making up reasons to use them or of anybody pushing to go ride around town in them for funnzies.

EDIT: Re-read the article.

 

[GlockRock]

Not really. I don't care if they ride unicorns to work and sprinkle pixie dust on the sidewalk. I don't care if they want to be tacticool. I don't care if they all go back to model 19's and bus driver caps like Barney Fife. I just think the expense of whatever they do should be justifiable to tax payers.

And I know getting called out on this stuff is really uncomfortable, hence the deflection like your post here, the emotion of "but dead cops!" shown earlier, or any of the other defense mechanisms. The hard reality is, not every agency needs one. Some do. Most do not.

What do you base your decision on of Bloomington not being an agency that needs one. They’re the 7th largest city in the state and see their fair share of violence.

 

[Woobie]

Look, I have never drawn any parallels between military and law enforcement. I was not the one who brought the military up in this thread. I just want to know how Monroe county justifies this. And then IMPD cops get defensive. Yet I plainly stated cities like Indianapolis need them. But Indy isn't Bloomington, and Bloomington isn't Losantville. Not every agency is of a size that justifies that sort of expense. And there isn't anything I've seen in here beyond emotion to explain to me how Bloomington is big enough or violent enough to need that sort of expense. We could all agree, I would hope, a town of 250 wouldn't need one. Unless that town had a police shootout once a week. And a town of 500,000 with rampant violence certainly does need one. Where is the reasoned argument that X size municipality with Y violent crimes per year needs an MRAP. And is Bloomington of X size with Y crime?

 

[Woobie]

What do you base your decision on of Bloomington not being an agency that needs one. They’re the 7th largest city in the state and see their fair share of violence.

First of all, the burden of proof is upon those holding out their hands for money.

Secondly, where is their history of standoffs, hostage situations, etc. How often do Bloomington police encounter situations where this would be necessary?

I don't know what being the 7th largest really has to do with it. The 7 largest cities in California probably need Abrams, not MRAPs. But the 7 largest in North Dakota probably need bicycles. I know Bloomington has violence, but is it of a nature that would require a Bearcat to protect cops? Is it murders where the cops show up to investigate? Is it domestic violence that turns ugly after the cops are already there? Are there any instances with cops or civilians in the line of fire when one of these trucks could actually be used?

 

[jsharmon7]

Not every agency is of a size that justifies that sort of expense. And there isn't anything I've seen in here beyond emotion to explain to me how Bloomington is big enough or violent enough to need that sort of expense. We could all agree, I would hope, a town of 250 wouldn't need one. Unless that town had a police shootout once a week. And a town of 500,000 with rampant violence certainly does need one. Where is the reasoned argument that X size municipality with Y violent crimes per year needs an MRAP. And is Bloomington of X size with Y crime?

According to the article, BPD averages 15-17 SWAT call outs per year. They also previously had an armored vehicle until it crapped out and they couldn't afford to replace it. There is a need, and this type of equipment isn't new.

 

[jamil]

Sure, they can do stuff with it. But of all the meth raids we are conducting in this country (never mind the fact that there is a much larger waste of money than MRAPs in every county), how many are turning deadly for officers in ways that an MRAP could have prevented? If we're losing that many cops over meth busts, and we can save a lot of them with equipment, and we are going to continue the war in drugs, then there is a justification for the equipment. But "them meth heads is crazy" isn't a good fiscal argument. I've lived next door to them, I get it. But I didn't line my house with AR500.

That's not really my argument. I'm not on the definitely yes or definitely no side of this. I'm on the it depends on the likelihood you'll need it side. I'd say Detroit can easily justify it. I'd say Georgetown PD definitely cannot justify it. Maybe an entire county can. And even for an entire county, if they can't say there's a reasonable likelihood they'll need it, then I say no.

 

[Woobie]

Cost. Militarization of police. Lack of necessity. Ideological issues with the drug war. I feel like the argument against it keeps changing.

My opinion on the matter is that any stand-off/barricaded subject/etc. will likely require some type of armored vehicle. What I find interesting is that multiple people in this thread have direct LE-experience in these types of situations and we are all in agreement that they are necessary. I think we're also all in agreement that nobody has seen any examples of making up reasons to use them or of anybody pushing to go ride around town in them for funnzies.

EDIT: Re-read the article.

The militarization of police was a red herring. It's nonsense. But cost is a real thing. And the fact that so many of the uses for these things boil down to situations we shouldn't be using cops for is another. Just because there is more than one argument against doesn't mean the argument is changing.

 

[patience0830]

I suppose that's up to the county in question and their residents. I wasn't aware that Losantville straddled the Monroe/Morgan county border.

No way is this possible.

 

[jamil]

Seriously. What's wrong with painting them pink and sticking hello-kitty decals all over them? There's no way any bad guys are going to put up a fight when you roll up in that. They'll be keeled over ROTFLTAO.