Bloomington Newspaper Disclosures

[Mr. Habib]

I guess I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and ask what the big deal is? It is public record. My wife's salary (along with every other state worker) is listed in a searchable database too. Property values, as well as a large amount of personal data, are also listed. My SBA loan details are online to be searched. Why is this particular set of public records causing such a ruckus? Especially since they're not listing personal data, just aggregated data. Let the flaming begin (although I am truly curious to opinions about why this is so pivotal).

The HT has all of the info from the data base, name, address, age, DOB, height, weight, ect... They have just not chosen to publish it, yet. They could do so at any time. Any criminal with that info or even the info already published could easily track down a firearm owner to an address, putting them at higher risk for burglary or a home invasion. This puts my family at increased risk thanks to the HT. The examples you list do not do that.

 

[jedi]

First welcome to .

Because 10 year old statistics definitely tell the story. I mean, barely anything has changed with either the firearms laws or the world in general.

Ony 0.7% of convicts bought their guns at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers.

SOURCE: Firearm Used by Offenders, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 02/2002

The data is NO 10 years old. Well the one he quoted is but follow-up studies have been done as shown abov that continue to show the same thing.

When you have time please look at this website:
Gun Facts - Your guide for debunking gun control myth

It has a slew of myth busters and the SOURCE of where the myth is busted from as well.

 

[jpo117]

It doesn't have to be in the public's best interest. It's public data. But I can also play the devil's advocate on why the public may want to know the data too. But that's probably for another thread...

Please do. I think you bring up some interesting points here (I disagree with many of them, but I think they're still good points) and I'd like to hear what you have to say about the potential public benefit of this.

Personally, I wouldn't care too much if the Journal Gazette up here decided to publish a similar online database that did not include personal information. I would care if they decided to publish people's addresses. The way to make sure that this doesn't happen is to contact our legislators and complain. I don't think the hyperbolic claim that Bloomington gun owners are being treated like sex offenders will do much to sway the general public, simply because it's 10% true and 90% silly in the general case.

 

[wetidlerjr]

A reply to an email I sent...

Thanks for your e-mail.



To clarify, there are no names in this data base. There are no specific street addresses in this data base. It would be nearly impossible if not totally impossible for anyone to find out private information from what we’ve published. We recognize that people have a right to obtain a personal protection firearms permit, and our reporting sought to see how many people in our part of the state have exercised their right to do so.

We support the 2nd Amendment, just as we support the 1st Amendment.

Respectfully,



Mayer

......

 

[femurphy77]

A point that nobody has brought up yet; How many stories do we hear everyday about peoples personal information being made public "inadvertently"? Is it too far fetched or tin-foil-hatted to believe that somebody on the anti-gun side, given access to, would put names, addresses etc. out into the media, internet, etc "Inadvertently"? Public information is public information, but it is only a keystroke or two away from full disclosure of personal information thru "inadvertent" releases.

Personally anything to do with the government anymore is met with much distrust and looking over my shoulder. There are too many of "THEM" in positions of power with the ability to screw us all over, from the Whitehouse on down!

 

[Jack Ryan]

Has anyone been into the database? I tried. Couldn't get there. Looks like you gotta subscribe and give them a valid credit card number.

Yes, it's pretty much useless and doesn't come close to equating any one with child molestors.

 

[techres]

It would be a nice ending to the story except for three things:

1. They still have the data and can use it/publish it at will.
2. They still are using gun owners data as a form of entertainment.
3. They have repeatedly announced to the public just how and where to get all our data for $32.


So, perhaps the story is over, perhaps not. But I do not see this as anything approaching an amicable ending.

 

[Mr. Habib]

I agree. The only positive outcome that I can see is a change in the law to no longer allow this information to be public record.

 

[BlackJack]

I hate the idea of my personal information being out in this database but it is not the only database I am in (nothing criminal). I only hope that if someone who is anti gun or on the fence pulls up their street on this database and sees how many License holders there are, and that they then can reason since there hasn't been any gun play in the neighborhood that pro gun people and guns do not equal the wild west. Maybe that is to much to hope for but a nice thought.

Just so I am clear I do not support this database and I have written my representatives. But until the law changes I can hope for lemonade from this lemon.

 

[6birds]

It would be a nice ending to the story except for three things:

1. They still have the data and can use it/publish it at will.
2. They still are using gun owners data as a form of entertainment.
3. They have repeatedly announced to the public just how and where to get all our data for $32.


So, perhaps the story is over, perhaps not. But I do not see this as anything approaching an amicable ending.

I'm going to reply directly to you, as you've shown to be a pretty level headed individual. We'll see how this goes.

There is tons of public information available, all sorts of lists and data files, from all different public permits, actions, and discussions. Public information needs to stay public. It is what gives us checks and balances on what the government is doing, or preparing to do. I use public informations and lists often. The system works.

Have you ever bought a hunting license? If you did, is it because you have a gun to hunt with? You think I can't get that list? Are you sure?
So there is another loophole to find gun ownership.

Now, that said, here is what has to change. No LTCH needed, no slip of paper, no monies to collect and distribute. It is public information because there is money involved. If the money goes away, so does the list. Alaska, no paper. Wisconsin, no paper (yes, i believe WI needs to allow CC and car carry, but that is a different subject.) If there was no LTCH paperwork and funding, public record is gone the same day.

Don't kill good information (public records), kill the paper trail on the rights to own/carry/conceal/destroy the gun, the rights I already had.

God bless.

 

[tyler34]

I'm going to reply directly to you, as you've shown to be a pretty level headed individual. We'll see how this goes.

There is tons of public information available, all sorts of lists and data files, from all different public permits, actions, and discussions. Public information needs to stay public. It is what gives us checks and balances on what the government is doing, or preparing to do. I use public informations and lists often. The system works.

Have you ever bought a hunting license? If you did, is it because you have a gun to hunt with? You think I can't get that list? Are you sure?
So there is another loophole to find gun ownership.

Now, that said, here is what has to change. No LTCH needed, no slip of paper, no monies to collect and distribute. It is public information because there is money involved. If the money goes away, so does the list. Alaska, no paper. Wisconsin, no paper (yes, i believe WI needs to allow CC and car carry, but that is a different subject.) If there was no LTCH paperwork and funding, public record is gone the same day.

Don't kill good information (public records), kill the paper trail on the rights to own/carry/conceal/destroy the gun, the rights I already had.

God bless.

I think the issue is not so much the info being publicly available but the HT throwing it out there so blatantly with no regard to gun owners and their neighbors who may not own guns. it creates tension on both sides. one side doesn't really want the HT point out to everyone who has guns and where, and non gun owners don't want to be around people with guns. public info is public info but its what you do with it and the HT is being very irresponsible with it.

 

[JLB768]

You know, the Herald Times is enjoying this, and I don't think that they would care if a few of us canceled our subscriptions. But here's an idea...Hit their advertisers where it hurts. Notify any business that advertises in the Herald Times, that until this database is removed, we will not be spending our money in their place of business. People are calling on others to boycott any business, who's owner is in the permit database. Well, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander...

 

[6birds]

I think the issue is not so much the info being publicly available but the HT throwing it out there so blatantly with no regard to gun owners and their neighbors who may not own guns. it creates tension on both sides. one side doesn't really want the HT point out to everyone who has guns and where, and non gun owners don't want to be around people with guns. public info is public info but its what you do with it and the HT is being very irresponsible with it.

Couldn't agree more! I just don't want this to turn into a public information witch hunt, I want the list to disappear from the state's files, not just from the headline in the papers.

Boycotting the paper or their ad base isn't going to go far. The people who advertise are trying the reach the demographic that reads the paper, and "WE" are not that demographic.

 

[JLB768]

Boycotting the paper or their ad base isn't going to go far. The people who advertise are trying the reach the demographic that reads the paper, and "WE" are not that demographic.

But we are the demographic for advertisers. For instance, I've purchased 5 brand new vehicles from Curry Chevrolet in the last two years, they know me very well, and I don't think they'd want to lose my business because of the HT. Two of those cars I purchased, came to over 120K, and I'm a cash paying customer. Now you take some of these smaller businesses, who have had regular customers for years, it's no different. If a business owner hears repeatedly that he is losing customers, and why, it may light a fire under his a**. Hitting someone in the pocketbook can be a powerful thing.

 

[techres]

I'm going to reply directly to you, as you've shown to be a pretty level headed individual. We'll see how this goes.

Thank you for the compliment.

There is tons of public information available, all sorts of lists and data files, from all different public permits, actions, and discussions.

I understand that there is information that is public, and information that is private. The trick is which is which and who makes that determination. Are the minutes of my conversation with my wife last night at home public record? No, of course not. Are the minutes of the last meeting of the senate? Yes, of course. So the real question is wether this info is closer to that private info, or closer to public in nature.

Keep in mind, this information is not exactly voluntary in nature either, it is forced from us as the price of the LTCH. I.E. if I do not want to be arrested for carrying in public, I have to hand over current address information.

Public information needs to stay public. It is what gives us checks and balances on what the government is doing, or preparing to do.

Sure, I get that too. But again the question is this: is my address a key piece of information in what the government is doing? Am I the government? How is my personal address related to the function of the government?

At the same time, you have to agree that my personal address and other contact info is fundamentally personal. Correct? So on the continuom of private/public you really have to work hard to prove any value that this list has in keeping the government in check.

Actually, by that same logic, we should just register all firearms, make their location public and thereby control the federal government. It makes no sense.

I use public informations and lists often. The system works.

You may frequent the data, but you then have to prove the system works. You see, all I know is that someone has a list with my private data in it and I am expected to trust them in it's use. That person has to go a long way to prove their trustworthiness, need, and resulting value. If not, I might as well start answering those Nigerian emails.

You say it works, and it may. But I am still not sure where and when my address helped you keep the government in place.

Have you ever bought a hunting license? If you did, is it because you have a gun to hunt with? You think I can't get that list? Are you sure?
So there is another loophole to find gun ownership.

I would love to see that list dead, or at least only available per court order, too if it contains my personal data. You want to violate my privacy, you should have to prove need first. It should not make any difference just because the state forced me to hand the data over first.

Now, that said, here is what has to change. No LTCH needed, no slip of paper, no monies to collect and distribute. It is public information because there is money involved. If the money goes away, so does the list. Alaska, no paper. Wisconsin, no paper (yes, i believe WI needs to allow CC and car carry, but that is a different subject.) If there was no LTCH paperwork and funding, public record is gone the same day.

I agree. I would see the state out of the gun papering business, marriage certifying business, and so forth. It just is not their business.

Don't kill good information (public records), kill the paper trail on the rights to own/carry/conceal/destroy the gun, the rights I already had.

God bless.

I never implied all public records need to go. I simply stated this information was mis-categorized, very likely with intent, and thus makes itself available for misuse. Such misuse would include being used for entertainment and questionable journalistic use.

Keep in mind, this data is not being used for a scoop, story, or investigation. It is being used as a game called "Data mine your neighbors & friends". Look at the HT and you can lookup their database on any IU or public worker's pay - by name. Look up other private data the state has their hands in too! Why? Because it is fun to snoop and be nosey. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JOURNALISM, IT IS ABOUT WEB HITS.

So, yes, the best avenue is to have the state reclassify this data since it was done incorrectly before and because journalists and papers cannot be reasonable in use. That is the solution. And, frankly, as a researcher you need to blame them for whatever data you lose access too. They are the ones that peed in the public pool.

As for the HT itself. They need to understand that there are consequences for choosing crass games over people's privacy. As a separate issue, they need to face those consequences in a significant enough fashion so as not to forget it again soon.

Well, that about does it. The 2A Patriots are already working with legislators and pressure is starting to be applied. For myself, I plan to put what I can behind the effort and make something of value happen.

 

[JLB768]

I have to agree with 6birds techres, you are very level headed, and your posts are well thought out.

 

[WileECoyotee]

This kind of information and Debate is one of the many reasons I joined and support this site , thanks INGO members for this !

 

[Jack Ryan]

But we are the demographic for advertisers. For instance, I've purchased 5 brand new vehicles from Curry Chevrolet in the last two years, they know me very well, and I don't think they'd want to lose my business because of the HT. Two of those cars I purchased, came to over 120K, and I'm a cash paying customer. Now you take some of these smaller businesses, who have had regular customers for years, it's no different. If a business owner hears repeatedly that he is losing customers, and why, it may light a fire under his a**. Hitting someone in the pocketbook can be a powerful thing.

Now you are getting a clue.

You don't have to make a single call or contact the news paper. All that does is give them quotes and sound bytes to manipulate to their own purpose.

Call their advertisers and tell them you won't patronize a business that supports a paper behaving that way. Then THEY will take a paddle to the newspaper's rear end that they will feel in a big way and fast.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

I called all the numbers given in the OP and left voice mails for the first two. The last guy, Mr Zaltsberg I believe, actually answered his phone and spoke with me. He said that the NRA info was false and there was no way for anyone to get any info more precise than what street they live on( which is too much in my estimation) He said that names and actual street addresses were not available through their web site.
I didn't let him off the hook and asked him what he thought could be an up side to making that kind of personal info accessible to anyone that might want it and he said something to the affect that they thought that people would be interested in knowing how the number of LTCH permits had gone up and where they were concentrated. They could have accomplished getting that info out by simply printing how many folks in each county had LTCH. I'd have no problem with that.
He said its 1 permit for every 28 homes in Monroe county and 1 in 8 in Brown County.
I don't like the fact that they would make this kinda stuff available to just anyone.
I wish I had a subscription so I could cancel it in a huff. I do my best to stay out of Bloomington, the libs make the air foul.

 

[JLB768]

The last guy, Mr Zaltsberg I believe, actually answered his phone and spoke with me. He said that the NRA info was false and there was no way for anyone to get any info more precise than what street they live on( which is too much in my estimation) He said that names and actual street addresses were not available through their web site.

Mr Zaltsberg is wrong, lying, or he just doesn't care. Some of us in Monroe County, are the only home on a particular street. If someone looks up my street, they will see one permit, if they drive down my street, they will see one house, that's pretty damn precise.