Better look at UC Davis pepper spray incident.

[TMU317]

Are you KIDDING Me!?!? Do you really mean to suggest that the Armed and Armored RIOT police had NO OTHER CHOICE than to pepper spray these UNarmed kids? Right. Two dozen heavily armed men couldn't find a better resolution...like walking around them?!? Please...These cops are an illustration of everything that is wrong with our police today. it is HARDLY necessary to send two dozen fat, pissed-off high-school educated brutes armed to the teeth with military weapons and armor to handle a bunch of Californian CHILDREN. Five men in polo shirts with zip-ties could have cleared that path in less than a minute, issued citations, and NOT created a scene out of '1984'. Ridiculous. For all of you 'good' cops out there...you should be OUTRAGED at the behavior of these thugs, not trying to defend them. There are plenty of places around the world you can join the police force to beat up on your own neighbors...America cannot be allowed to be one of them. Shame on all of them.

Who said they only have a high school education? Who said they were pissed off? If they were pissed off, why did they not use the paintball markers which shoot paintballs that contain OC? That would inflict more pain than simply spraying them with OC. If five men in polo shirts could have handled the job, why did the administration at UC Davis not send in five men wearing polo shirts? And who said they were children?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Wow...circular logic at its best.

A gun is a tool of oppression, in the hands of oppressors. It is a tool of freedom, in the hands of the free. It is not having it both ways.

Talking out of turn? OK. I have been pepper sprayed, at the hands of my ILEA instructors during training for my previous career...as a police officer. I had a long discussion about it with my horrified next-door neighbor...a research physician. I'm probably not an expert...but talking out of turn? LOL

Only one direction was blocked by protesters, the circe was made of spectators. There is a difference.

Why are ILEA instructors pepper spraying students with such a dangerous chemical agent? To see how it feels? Do they also shoot students too? Did they have medics on standby?

 

[Denny347]

If they were pissed off, why did they not use the paintball markers which shoot paintballs that contain OC? That would inflict more pain than simply spraying them with OC.

I can tell you that those really hurt....they really do.

 

[finnegan]

While I'm glad that this was posted, I have to say that the selective editing on the "pro force" side of the argument is just as skewed as the other. Choosing some scenes to show and not others with descriptive white text about how we are supposed to view the footage has been used to equal effect to convince people that aliens visit the Earth and that there are lizard people controlling the world.
Remember, both sides think they are the good guys, and the tactics used justified. The protesters felt some of them were harassed and unlawfully arrested and reacted. The police felt they had to do the job given to them using the tools they had.

In my personal opinion, saying the protesters deserved to be pepper sprayed for provocative behavior is like saying a woman deserves to be raped for dressing provocatively. No matter what else this footage shows, it unquestionably shows a police officer pepper spraying unresisting college students after easily stepping over them.

In my opinion, this is a situation where the police should have ignored the protesters "escalation" by sitting down and just stepped over them. Anyone trying to actively shove or restrain an officer from doing so is dealt with accordingly; and will get very little sympathy. What the seated protesters did is the equivalent of a child not putting his shoes on so you can go to the store, not forming a shield wall like something from Athens.

 

[Kutnupe14]

While I'm glad that this was posted, I have to say that the selective editing on the "pro force" side of the argument is just as skewed as the other. Choosing some scenes to show and not others with descriptive white text about how we are supposed to view the footage has been used to equal effect to convince people that aliens visit the Earth and that there are lizard people controlling the world.
Remember, both sides think they are the good guys, and the tactics used justified. The protesters felt some of them were harassed and unlawfully arrested and reacted. The police felt they had to do the job given to them using the tools they had.

In my personal opinion, saying the protesters deserved to be pepper sprayed for provocative behavior is like saying a woman deserves to be raped for dressing provocatively. No matter what else this footage shows, it unquestionably shows a police officer pepper spraying unresisting college students after easily stepping over them.

In my opinion, this is a situation where the police should have ignored the protesters "escalation" by sitting down and just stepped over them. Anyone trying to actively shove or restrain an officer from doing so is dealt with accordingly; and will get very little sympathy. What the seated protesters did is the equivalent of a child not putting his shoes on so you can go to the store, not forming a shield wall like something from Athens.

Well, I can see your point, but IMO the justification is there. If you are surround by a group of people that have stated that they aren't going to let you leave, are you going to think to yourself "aww, they're not serious, they're just joshin'?" Because one single officer stepped over the group doesn't mean that all of the officers would have been able to do so also.
Surely you've heard stories of guys, on point, during the Vietnam War, being allowed to pass, so that the larger body of soldiers following behind could be engaged? The possibility of that happening at UC Davis 99% unlikely. However, that 1% is still there, and with my safety, I don't even want to give that much up.... especially to a bunch of people that are shouting at me, have me surrounded, and are pissed in general.

 

[TMU317]

While I'm glad that this was posted, I have to say that the selective editing on the "pro force" side of the argument is just as skewed as the other. Choosing some scenes to show and not others with descriptive white text about how we are supposed to view the footage has been used to equal effect to convince people that aliens visit the Earth and that there are lizard people controlling the world.
Remember, both sides think they are the good guys, and the tactics used justified. The protesters felt some of them were harassed and unlawfully arrested and reacted. The police felt they had to do the job given to them using the tools they had.

In my personal opinion, saying the protesters deserved to be pepper sprayed for provocative behavior is like saying a woman deserves to be raped for dressing provocatively. No matter what else this footage shows, it unquestionably shows a police officer pepper spraying unresisting college students after easily stepping over them.

In my opinion, this is a situation where the police should have ignored the protesters "escalation" by sitting down and just stepped over them. Anyone trying to actively shove or restrain an officer from doing so is dealt with accordingly; and will get very little sympathy. What the seated protesters did is the equivalent of a child not putting his shoes on so you can go to the store, not forming a shield wall like something from Athens.

Comparing this incident to a woman being raped is absurd. The protesters were warned multiple times to leave, and chose to not do so. They were also well aware that they were about to be sprayed with OC, as evidenced by the video. Raping someone and spraying someone with OC are completely different. These were not children, and if a child is sitting on the ground refusing to put his/her shoes on while yelling **** you, then there are much more serious issues than the child refusing to put his/her shoes on.

 

[TMU317]

Two dozen heavily armed men couldn't find a better resolution...like walking around them

Heavily armed? The only weapons I saw in the video were sticks, OC, paintball markers, and holstered sidearms. I would not define this as "heavily armed".

 

[Dead Duck]

Are you KIDDING Me!?!? Do you really mean to suggest that the Armed and Armored RIOT police had NO OTHER CHOICE than to pepper spray these UNarmed kids? Right. Two dozen heavily armed men couldn't find a better resolution...like walking around them?!? Please...These cops are an illustration of everything that is wrong with our police today. it is HARDLY necessary to send two dozen fat, pissed-off high-school educated brutes armed to the teeth with military weapons and armor to handle a bunch of Californian CHILDREN. Five men in polo shirts with zip-ties could have cleared that path in less than a minute, issued citations, and NOT created a scene out of '1984'. Ridiculous. For all of you 'good' cops out there...you should be OUTRAGED at the behavior of these thugs, not trying to defend them. There are plenty of places around the world you can join the police force to beat up on your own neighbors...America cannot be allowed to be one of them. Shame on all of them.

Are you KIDDING Me!?!? Do you really mean to suggest that all those STUDENTS had no legs and couldn't just walk AWAY???? You mean they had NO OTHER CHOICE than to just SCREAM and throw crap at the Cops????

I blame the Professors that rile them up, the Parents who don't check out the schools first(usually just don't care), and the Students for being so brain dead they can't think for themselves.

Just in that clip I saw students not only trespassing but Assaulting the police and all they got was pepper sprayed? That alone outrages me. I would have beat the snot out of those vegi-turds.

Don't you need to go occupying something? Like California!

 

[PaulF]

Heavily armed? The only weapons I saw in the video were sticks, OC, paintball markers, and holstered sidearms. I would not define this as "heavily armed".

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

UC Davis Police:
Sticks...Check. Airguns...Check. Pepper Spray...check. Handgun...check.

UC Davis Students:
iPhone...Check.

...not heavily armed. <sigh>
Try walking into a bank equipped like that. Or the airport. Or court. Or school.

 

[sadclownwp]

I think the police did the right thing, they even showed restrain by using pepper spray instead of there night sticks. As far as the protesters go sure they have the right to block the path, but their rights stop where the rights of the police officers begin. When you surround the police and offer to let them go, you have made the police hostages. And they have the right to do what is nessesary to go home safely at the end of the day. By interfering with an arrest the protesters become criminals, and should be treated as such.

I wish the police would have done more and arrested those protesters in there way as well and anyone who tried to stop them, give them the maximum penalty as well. Let them spend a month or two in prison, and fail the semester, hit them in there pocket books, that will teach them not to be idiots.

It is not like the police ever pulled out there guns, they were not even heavily armed police, they had there sidearm, what looked like 2 extra mags, and some of them had mace and a paintball gun. I am more armed than those police are.

 

[PaulF]

Why are ILEA instructors pepper spraying students with such a dangerous chemical agent? To see how it feels? Do they also shoot students too? Did they have medics on standby?

At the time they did exactly that...at it worked. I understand TO THIS DAY what a powerful tool OC spray is. But, no they didn't shoot us or beat us with the PR24 (well, there was red-man training, but that's a little different.). There were plenty of smart-ass comments to that effect, tho...

 

[IndyBeerman]

Do you read your posts? What a series of hollow straw-man arguments.
Stick to the topic.
In case YOU haven't noticed I am NOT talking about private gun ownership. I am referring to the heavy-handed tactics of the UC Davis Campus police. My argument is that first: they need NOT be armed, they are CAMPUS POLICE. Second: I argue for a better-educated police force. Every mechanic in my shop has a college degree. It makes a difference in my shop, it makes a difference on the street. Third: I argue that hyperbole has a place in my post, It certainly got you riled up.

Are you serious, REALLY???

They was issued three, THREE, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, (I put this multiple times so you will understand) that they was instructed to leave, yet not only do they not leave, they surround the officers and to me it seems as if they are trying to initiate a riot.

This peaceful little protest is out the window when they start to encircle the police, this my friend is exactly how a mob mentality can escalate into a frenzy that put officers at great harm.

Personally each and everyone of these students put themselves in harms way by their actions.

I know this, if I was someplace and was issued the first warning to disperse or face arrest, that's the only warning I need to leave, I don't want to be a sacrificial lamb, I want to be able to state my point in a legitimate and legal way, getting arrested is not the way to do it.

The only thing I can see that the officers failed to do was bring a few more of them and a whole lot more pepper spray and a few dozen buses to cart their arses onto while squirming from the pepper spray.

Now as to being better educated, I'd be more than willing to wager that the requirement to be a police officer at ANY department like this in CA requires a college degree or equivalent training (military police) along with training at an academy like the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy.
They are not some guy off the street with a GED that's been a career Mall Ninja.

 

[TMU317]

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

UC Davis Police:
Sticks...Check. Airguns...Check. Pepper Spray...check. Handgun...check.

UC Davis Students:
iPhone...Check.

...not heavily armed. <sigh>

Your laughter, combined with the fact that the students were carrying iPhones, is not sufficient evidence that these officers were "heavily armed". They were armed. The students may or may not have been. That does not mean the officers were "heavily armed".

 

[PaulF]

Your laughter, combined with the fact that the students were carrying iPhones, is not sufficient evidence that these officers were "heavily armed". They were armed. The students may or may not have been. That does not mean the officers were "heavily armed".

By comparison? uhm...yes. Yes.

YES!

How much do you need? I say only a badge and a zip-tie, maybe a pen. They are the campus police.

 

[Kutnupe14]

By comparison? uhm...yes.

I'll remember not to roll my eyes the next time I hear a "heavily armed" man disrupted the peace in a local wal-mart by OC'ing a derringer.

 

[finnegan]

Comparing this incident to a woman being raped is absurd. The protesters were warned multiple times to leave, and chose to not do so. They were also well aware that they were about to be sprayed with OC, as evidenced by the video. Raping someone and spraying someone with OC are completely different. These were not children, and if a child is sitting on the ground refusing to put his/her shoes on while yelling **** you, then there are much more serious issues than the child refusing to put his/her shoes on.

I completely agree with you, but the comparison I was going with is the old "wear that skirt/ red shirt and you are going to get raped/ shot" /"I should be able to wear what I want without fear of attack" line of reasoning and then blaming the victim instead of the attacker for the resulting attack. Just because they were warned, doesn't mean it was right; or justified. At the end of the day, its up to the police to be the mature ones here.

Also, it appears the bystanders, not the seated protesters, were screaming. At one point you see one of the seated protesters start waving and saying "no! no!" when they start the "F the Police" chant.

The difference is aggression and violence. Both sides were very aggressive. Only one side was violent. In this style of protest, the violent side is usually the tactical winner but the strategic loser.

 

[PaulF]

I'll remember not to roll my eyes the next time I hear a "heavily armed" man disrupted the peace in a local wal-mart by OC'ing a derringer.

I think the chances are pretty good that we're all more heavily armed than those guys...but i still say there's no need to bring a stick to wordfight, let alone a gun.

So i stand by what i wrote: they were over-armed for the situation...they are the campus police.


(To be clear...this is all in the spirit of lively and open discussion...i do not intend to offend anyone personally. It's just the interwebs, afterall...)

 

[Kutnupe14]

I completely agree with you, but the comparison I was going with is the old "wear that skirt/ red shirt and you are going to get raped/ shot" /"I should be able to wear what I want without fear of attack" line of reasoning and then blaming the victim instead of the attacker for the resulting attack. Just because they were warned, doesn't mean it was right; or justified. At the end of the day, its up to the police to be the mature ones here.

Also, it appears the bystanders, not the seated protesters, were screaming. At one point you see one of the seated protesters start waving and saying "no! no!" when they start the "F the Police" chant.

The difference is aggression and violence. Both sides were very aggressive. Only one side was violent. In this style of protest, the violent side is usually the tactical winner but the strategic loser.

Is your stance that because they we're "peaceful," no "violence" should have been used? And if so, are there limits to how long one stays "non0violent," in the face of peaceful opposition?

 

[Outlaw]

I think this conversation would be a lot different if all involved were wearing the same clothing. It's only a matter of perception

 

[PaulF]

Is your stance that because they we're "peaceful," no "violence" should have been used? And if so, are there limits to how long one stays "non0violent," in the face of peaceful opposition?

In this situation, yes. The student/campus police relationship is not (and should not be) the same as the general public/Professional Police relationship. And the limit is (IMHO):Use violence only once violence is used against me.