Best weapons for my specific SHTF defense

[mmorph55]

If you have limited funds and are going to be limited by the number of guns, then i would suggest the good old shot gun. I would add some adaptors.....with a little converting a shot gun can be made to shoot anything.
Shotgun Adapters - 12 gauge - Short Lane Arms

 

[cosermann]

OP, I'd echo others in encouraging you to think about whether you need a rifle caliber or not. A pistol caliber, even in a carbine won't do the same job as a rifle.

However, I believe the need to engage at very long distances will be unlikely. If there is any remaining civil authority at all, you could (i.e. will probably eventually) easily be called to account for engaging someone at extreme distance (and frankly, most people can't hit reliably past 200 yards anyway without some dedication and practice).

In an apocalyptic, zombie epidemic, aliens invading, foreign invasion scenario - fine. But part of the definition of anapocalyptic scenario is that it’s exceedingly rare. FerFal's has commented on this in his blog in the context of Argentina's most recent economic collapse and consequent social/political unrest. Your handgun(s) will likely remain your most used firearms.

If you're preparing for TEOTWAKI, then go ahead and get a .308.

But, given my assumptions (which I think are realistic and historically valid - others may disagree), a .308 shouldn't be at the top of your priority list (esp if you have a limited budget). A 5.56 will cover your more likely needs, at lower cost, be usable by your wife, and in AR form would be a familiar platform if your military kids show up. Go for a 1/8 or 1/7barrel so you have the option of using heavier bullets.

I also think you need a .22 lr simply because they're so incredibly versatile and inexpensive.

I'm not a big shotgun proponent due to the cost and bulkiness of shotgun ammunition which makes it more difficult to stock a sufficient quantity of ammo and/or carry it if needed.

 

[Zoub]

I have a very specific situation that I welcome your thoughts on. I am mid-60s in age and kids are all gone.

I'm open to all ideas.

Light weight, low recoil, short length.

I am a 12 gauge/.45 guy all my life and when I turned 40 I started buying 9mm, .223 and 20 gauge so I would have guns I could shoot in my old age and be familiar with them before I decided I was old. I also knew I had injuries to deal with and as it turns out, that came to a head before old age did.

In my youth I saw plenty of guys in their 70's struggle with their .45's and 12 gauges. It was painful to watch. I can still old Thurm, thinking to myself, "Shoot. for Christ sake Thurm, shoot."

Buy at least one inexpensive .22lr rifle and put Tech sights on it to use as a trainer and anything else. The youth 10/22 with 16" barrel is nice.

Buy a gun and use it, you are not get any younger. For shotguns, Semi auto gas operated like Beretta and Remington will be best due to low recoil, get 20's. No need for barrels over 26" but frankly 21 to 24 is better. 18 for HD.

What is nice about AR's and mainstream guns like Glocks are the .22 uppers for practice and use as hunters or with cans. The AR is the best old guy, light weight, light recoil gun out there. Low recoil will allow you to become a better shooter faster. Anyone can use .223, ANYONE. 9mm carbines recoil much harder.

 

[Zoub]

If you have limited funds and are going to be limited by the number of guns, then i would suggest the good old shot gun. I would add some adaptors.....with a little converting a shot gun can be made to shoot anything.
Shotgun Adapters - 12 gauge - Short Lane Arms

Not pumps and semi, only break actions.

http://www.mcace.com/index.htm

 

[the1kidd03]

personally, in an event where you had to do all of this.....I prefer to equip myself with calibers which will kill without question kill and are easily attainable by means of scavenging from enemy and still mass produced.....common calibers such as .308/7.62x51, 5.56/.223, 7.62x39 and any 9mm,.40,45 are all going to be the most common ammo to find.....find the most reliable weapons systems you can afford which will handle such calibers and you will not have to worry about obtaining ammo.....just food for thought

 

[SEIndSAM]

I vote for an inexpensive .22 rifle with a scope, but not as much for defensive reasons but for food gathering. Squirrels, Racoons, rabbits and other small animals can be a good protein source in an SHTF scenario and a .22 does not destroy much meat. Add to that the ammo is cheap so it is easy to stock up.

 

[DaveL]

Thank you. This has been a great conversation and I appreciate your input.

I am pondering all your ideas and matching them to my needs. I know that 9mm is not enough to stop a real assault nor is it accurate to a very long range. On the other hand, I hope I am not forced into either of those situations. Neither fit me well and regardless of the weapon, I doubt I would be very successful. I also doubt that I will have the resources that attract that kind of attention. But, I have spent some time looking at Mosins! I'll have to look closer at some at a get together sometime.

I am especially interested in the debate between a shotgun and an AR for HD. I do see a lot of benefit in the shotgun for hunting. The AR has to be the most fun to own, but it would wreck my overall budget. Not sure I want to sink that much money into one gun.

I think my next step is to get a .22 rifle. There are some nice 10/22s out there. Fits my budget, my wife, and our need to get out and shoot a LOT! After that, I'm not sure yet. Lot's of great info here to think about between now and then.

 

[the1kidd03]

Thank you. This has been a great conversation and I appreciate your input.

I am pondering all your ideas and matching them to my needs. I know that 9mm is not enough to stop a real assault nor is it accurate to a very long range. On the other hand, I hope I am not forced into either of those situations. Neither fit me well and regardless of the weapon, I doubt I would be very successful. I also doubt that I will have the resources that attract that kind of attention. But, I have spent some time looking at Mosins! I'll have to look closer at some at a get together sometime.

I am especially interested in the debate between a shotgun and an AR for HD. I do see a lot of benefit in the shotgun for hunting. The AR has to be the most fun to own, but it would wreck my overall budget. Not sure I want to sink that much money into one gun.

I think my next step is to get a .22 rifle. There are some nice 10/22s out there. Fits my budget, my wife, and our need to get out and shoot a LOT! After that, I'm not sure yet. Lot's of great info here to think about between now and then.

I build AR's all the time for family and my personal collection....you can build them considerably cheaper than a store or private purchase...around 600-700....a shotgun is good for close quarters where you don't want penetration into neighbors homes and for a woman who you don't wish to have to spend extensive time taking good aim....but the AR is going to be considerably more effective in a wider variety of situations...load it with a HP round that's not too hot and you won't have to worry about penetration, load a different magazine and you can hit a target who's 800 meters out...500 meters with iron sights no scope....I have a shotgun for my wife and just to have in certain situations where a rifle won't work, but I also have a short AR loaded and ready to go at all time...a great shotgun for you to look at is only about $225...it's stamped "Maverick" but it is made by mossberg and is basically the same thing as a mossberg 500 with a different safety. I had one before they took on the Maverick line and you can't beat them for the money...8 shot tube and an 18" barrel for well under 300...great buy on a budget

 

[the1kidd03]

in regards to the 9mm....it's the round of the military, not to mention much of the world's police/military preference so finding ammo will never be an issue and it's considerably cheaper than other protection rounds like 40 or 45 so you can afford to practice more.....on another note....you really don't want to be engaging targets beyond 50 yeards with a handgun anyway and in which case no handgun is going to be all that accurate in a stressful situation to boot...plus it's not too much recoil for women and youth to handle as opposed to larger rounds....I've seen and read numerous stories of .22's not penetrating and in fact seen one instance where it literally did not penetrate a mans calf muscle....hardly something you would want to put your family's life on......in the old days of slaughter house ammo testing the .22 was never able to kill an animal with one shot to the head...or at least not consitently by any means......38 special is considered the least acceptable self defense round capable of dropping an opponent in one shot (regardless of POI depending on choice in ammo)...but personally for combination between range, accuracy, availability of ammo, price, and ability of anyone being able to use it....I'd go with the 9mm

 

[the1kidd03]

the other quality of the 9mm that I like the best....is that due to it's recoil you have considerably faster target acquisition between shots...meaning less muzzle jump/flip, which means getting back on focus to your sights faster, which means back onto your target faster, which means faster and more accurate fire....and if you even oncounter a situation where you have to drop multiple opponents ASAP without the benefit of cover...you'll thank whoever you believe in that you went with a 9mm......personally, I also love the 45 due to its slower speed it is "naturally subsonic" so you won't lose anything when adding a suppressor for silent operations....but for your purposes I think you'll be better off with a 9

 

[cosermann]

. .. I know that 9mm is not enough to stop a real assault . . .

I am especially interested in the debate between a shotgun and an AR for HD. I do see a lot of benefit in the shotgun for hunting. The AR has to be the most fun to own, but it would wreck my overall budget. Not sure I want to sink that much money into one gun. . ..

Just a few comments:

First - Don't make the mistake of selling the 9mm short.

Second - If the S truly does HTF, you'll use whatever firearm you have for hunting. Sportsmanship goes out the window. For example, shooting geese on the ground with a bullet works just as well as shooting them on the wing with birdshot and it's cheaper and uses a lighter, less bulky piece of ammunition. And this assumes game won't be hunted to scarcity in short order.

Also, don't think an AR is that much more expensive than a shotgun until you factor in an adequate supply of ammunition for each and a spare barrel for the shotty (to take advantage of its "versatility").

For example* :
AR + 2,250 rnds M193 = approx. $1,673
Rem 870 (2 bbls) + 2,250 rnds (bird/buck/slug equal amounts) = $1,509

I didn't bother to find the break even point, but at the 2,250 round level the difference is only $164 or so - nothing to have the proper tool for the job. At some point the AR is actually cheaper because of ammunition cost.

 

[the1kidd03]

For example* :
AR + 2,250 rnds M193 = approx. $1,673
Rem 870 (2 bbls) + 2,250 rnds (bird/buck/slug equal amounts) = $1,509

I didn't bother to find the break even point, but at the 2,250 round level the difference is only $164 or so - nothing to have the proper tool for the job. At some point the AR is actually cheaper because of ammunition cost.

Personally, I don't buy it unless it is stamped m855 rounds...because some is stamped m193 and painted green tip and passed off as military ammo but it is not the penetrator round .....but 1600 seems high, where do you buy it?

 

[cosermann]

M193 (55 gr) is a completely different round than M855 (62 gr). You like M855 that's fine by me. I go M193 or heavy (75 gr+) and don't use much in between.

Just pulled a few representative prices from ammunitiontogo.com, and I went realistic with what I would buy (Federal Lake City), not Wolf or similar, and that $1,600 ish is for the rifle AND the ammo. I also didn't price the rifle as a build (since I didn't think it would fit the OPs need very well, and it would be unfair to compare an AR build to a factory complete 870).

My analysis is meant to be representative - and realistic - it can be tweaked by building the AR and saving $150 or so (which makes the break even point really close to the 2,250 round mark), buying cheaper ammo somewhere, etc. I did my best to compare decent apples (AR) to decent oranges (shotty).

 

[the1kidd03]

M193 (55 gr) is a completely different round than M855 (62 gr). You like M855 that's fine by me. I go M193 or heavy (75 gr+) and don't use much in between.

Just pulled a few representative prices from ammunitiontogo.com, and I went realistic with what I would buy (Federal Lake City), not Wolf or similar, and that $1,600 ish is for the rifle AND the ammo. I also didn't price the rifle as a build (since I didn't think it would fit the OPs need very well, and it would be unfair to compare an AR build to a factory complete 870).

My analysis is meant to be representative - and realistic - it can be tweaked by building the AR and saving $150 or so (which makes the break even point really close to the 2,250 round mark), buying cheaper ammo somewhere, etc. I did my best to compare decent apples (AR) to decent oranges (shotty).

I did not realize you were including the price of the weapon. I just prefer the 855 for its effectiveness at a distance in comparison. It's really all the military stocks these days. Nobody I know has seen 193 in service since at least 2005 or so.

 

[cosermann]

. . . I just prefer the 855 for its effectiveness at a distance in comparison. It's really all the military stocks these days. Nobody I know has seen 193 in service since at least 2005 or so.

Effective at what? Penetration of "hard things" - yes.

However, on soft targets - my main interest - M193 fragments more reliably at greater distances than M855 (because it stays above the fragmentation velocity threshold longer) and is cheaper.

For more info, see:
:: Ammo Oracle

Heavier bullets, i.e. 75 and up, change things up a bit because they'll fragment at lower velocieties. And then you have civilian hollowpoint ammo, etc.

But, I don't want to get too far afield from the subject of this thread.

 

[the1kidd03]

Effective at what? Penetration of "hard things" - yes.

However, on soft targets - my main interest - M193 fragments more reliably at greater distances than M855 (because it stays above the fragmentation velocity threshold longer) and is cheaper.

For more info, see:
:: Ammo Oracle

Heavier bullets, i.e. 75 and up, change things up a bit because they'll fragment at lower velocieties. And then you have civilian hollowpoint ammo, etc.

But, I don't want to get too far afield from the subject of this thread.

I'm not going to debate ballistics with you or jack this thread any longer. The fact is we can both find websites to show "evidence" in support of whatever we want either way until we're both blue in the face. I simply encourage you to go to an extended range and test the ammo yourself as I do.

 

[Iroquois]

A rifled slug barrel on an 870 is good out to 200yrds with the right slug. If I had limited funds I'D find a good used 870 {not express} and learn to load my own.
I've fired a 9mm full auto on a police range and was unimpressed...I'd as soon have a
shotgun and 00buck . As long as you have a 9mm rifle for the boss to shoot,go get
a 12ga. 12 is more common and more affective of a round. You'll find it easier to
accessorize the 12 and it's easier to find buckshot in 12.
My 870 came to me in a trade.I've since added a longer tube and a Knox recoil-reducing
stock.
You said you're not a great shot so a scatter gun makes sense. If you want to learn
to shoot get a .22 and find an Appleseed shoot. The .22 always makes sense as a survival gun...a.22 through the head will kill about anything ,even bears if you're
desperate and you know where to shoot them!

 

[PlasticPistol17]

+1 for me on the Shotgun - Its the leatherman of guns, and in a SHTF it'd be indispensible for active defense. Not only can it shoot non-lethal warning shots of bean-bags or rubber rounds (only for the transistion time between normal life to accepted SHTF is here - IMO) followed by bang-bang-you're dead double-00s, with the versatility of adapters you can pick up just about any ammo to run through it (+1 on MMORPH55 on that), from .22 to your excess 9mm, 410 or 20gauge, as well as long rifle(ish) range slugs. So if you come across any ammo after things get bad, you likely can use it.

Oh, and grab a few of the flame thrower shells at the 1500. I look at those as a good intimidator for when you get a few more baddies than the odd one meth-head. A 250ft flame I'd imagine would give pause to a few people.

The other thing in my mind is the idea of what you plan to do with it. The hunting is obvious, but some people would think they need a .308 FN FAL (Not nocking it, its my favorite & next rifle - not a plinker .223) and thats for people with major funds and that plan to go out to the front line. If you are just standing your ground and protecting your property a 12gauge is perfect. Best also for the groggy-just-awaken home owner to deal with baddies looting or such in the hard to aim dead of night. And if you'd have to bug out - One gun that shoots plinker, pistol and shot ammo would be far more portable.

Only downside is 00's are pricey and shells are bulky to bug out with, but a good shotgun only costs around $200 give or take, and you have it all.

JMHO

 

[Sailor]

I don't this problem is solved with another gun. I think you need a better plan.

 

[Cherryspringer]

Shtf

I would recommend going with a 12 ga shotgun. Ammo is cheap and nothing has better knockdown. Great for hunting and personal protection. If you're concerned about recoil buy an autoloader, they don't kick too bad. Also definitely get yourself a .22. Ammo is almost free. they don't make much noise and they're accurate out to 100 yards. And finally if you want to reach out there you might think of a bolt action .223. Again ammo is cheap (for a high powered rifle) and you can get out to 500 yards. I love the .308 but ammo is pricey and they make a lot of noise. I would also have more than one .22 rifle. They're cheap and you don't want to be without one if one breaks.