Best CC Caliber?

[ChootEm]

Still sticking with my 9mm. I know it can get the job done if it has to. Small size, manageable recoil out of a smaller package, and nice round count compared to size. I know you will seldom need over four rounds but it is nice to know it is there.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

For me this falls under the category of questions that can't really be answered. There are just way too many variables. While I agree with the widely accepted advice to carry the biggest gun you can effectively use. How does one accurately determine that. Do you carry the biggest gun you can fire three shots in rapid succession and hit within a 5" diameter of your target? Or is that too big? What defines rapid succession? Is that three seconds, or less? Most people can accomplish this with a variety of guns while stationary. How about while moving? Most ranges don't afford you the opportunity to practice or assess this.

I agree that it's not really going to be answered, at least not to the precision that folks really want. You can draw general conclusions among a wide disparity, .22 LR vs .44 magnum for example, but it gets a lot more fuzzy when you get into the common duty rounds. You are spot on, simply too many variables that can't reliably be known and measured.

I would alter the advise slightly about choosing what to carry though. Carrying the largest that you can effectively use is rather nebulous, and what defines "effective"? Like you say, there's various measurements of accuracy and speed. Let's also consider there's huge variations in skill. Jerry Miculek will likely outshoot me with a Hi-Point regardless of what I use. That's irrelevant to my own selection, though. That's why I say find what you shoot accurately the fastest in any of the acceptable calibers. I firmly believe that speed and accuracy matter much more once you're in a duty caliber than the the slight differences among them.

I've posted my personal criteria on how I measure this several times. What can I pull and put 3 "A" box hits on the fastest at 7 yards. That's a pretty "average" shooting. It is, in my opinion, the simplest measure of what I'm best with. Now, I'll train and practice at other distances, with multiple targets, on the move, etc. I'm one of the lucky ones with both a personal range and access to a range that allows strings of fire, shooting on the move, etc. I will keep those times and compare. Without exception, what I am fastest with on my simple test will also be what I'm fastest with on more complex ones. It translates over. Maybe not in the same proportions (.3 seconds faster on this test, .7 on that one) but the ranking is the same. For me right now its the Sig P220 with aftermarket sights and the short reset trigger. It happens to be in .45.

I will confess to some hypocrisy, however. For on duty use I prefer heavy and slow bullets because of their performance against intermediate barriers. Off duty when its pretty unlikely I'll have to shoot through a windshield or the like, I find this much less of an issue. Because I don't care for a lot of logistics, I tend to not expand into new calibers. I've never shot a .327, for example. I consolidated awhile back and got rid of everything not .38/.357, .40, and .45. If not for uniformed detail requirements, I'd probably ditch .40 as well.

 

[in625shooter]

I think you lose a lot in the averages. I think certain calibers perform better due to bullet selection, who commonly carries them, etc. I think you can draw some overall advice, but don't get hung up in the specific numbers.

Whatever caliber the police carry is going to be over represented because there's at least a modicum of training and there's good bullet selection. Common thug guns are going to be under represented due to generally poor bullet selection and the whole holding the gun sideways thing. Yes, they still do it. Yes, they hit each other in the legs a lot.

I don't have anything I specifically disagree with. I just believe there are so many variables that getting to a precise number of shots down to the 1/100th strikes me as unlikely. Yes, I get its an average. Here's the problem. I had a victim shot approximately 14 times with a .40. 10 in the limbs and 4 in the gut. He was right in front of a firehouse, they got him patched up in time, and he lived. Which bullet "stopped" him? #1? #14? I dunno. He claims amnesia, so I'm guessing he's not telling any researcher, either. Another one comes to mind on the other end of the scale. Suspect says he wants to fist fight, victim goes out to meet him, suspect pulls gun, victim starts backing toward his house. The suspect goes ahead and shoots him twice anyway, with the victim continuing to back away. Is that a two, one, or zero? The victim was "stopped" from fighting by the sight of the gun, but didn't stop his intended course of action despite being shot twice. Is it a stop or a failure to stop? If its a zero shot stop, how do you know what caliber to credit it to? How do you situations like these and enter it into your statistics? Regardless of how you do it, even if you kick it out, you aren't getting "true" results.

You may get a good count in a police action shooting or in a civilian defensive shooting, especially at a business where there's video and you can go back and actually see, but even when people want to be helpful, there's so much stress its unlikely they are going to be able to tell you if it was #2 or #3 that stopped him. Especially with modern higher capacity guns and the training to shoot until the threat stops, you may stitch a guy after he's stopped but before that info gets to your brain and back to your hand to stop firing. A heavier recoiling gun like the .357 may end up showing it takes less shots simply because there's more time between each shot and the "evaluate that he's stopped, let's stop shooting" time frame has less shots fired.

Moving beyond that into the general recommendations and we're basically on the same page. .380 and up = good. Smaller = bad. (With the caveat that I don't make a recommendation on the .32 one way or the other from first hand observation because its so uncommon I don't have a good data set. My belief is that it should be avoided, but that's not the same as seeing it. I'm deeply suspicious of how he got his numbers on that one and would bet the sample size is tiny)

There are so many variables, and frankly even if you have statements from everyone, video, and an autopsy, you probably still don't have the entire picture. Carry whatever you shoot accurately the fastest in a caliber that's capable of penetrating bone and still getting to the vitals. I personally carry a .45 or a .357 as a main gun and a .38 as a backup. I'd carry a .40 or 9mm with no problem. There's not much in the way of duty sized pistols in .380, but I'd be ok with one as a backup. I will say I'd rather carry a .380 with good sights, a nice trigger, and an intuitive grip angle than a .45 without them.

^^THIS^^ pretty much sums it up. All to often folks "buy into" stats and charts and all that. When there is a failure to stop it is often the Variables that cause it and not the performance of the caliber (the 1986 FBI Miami shooting if proof. They centered on the 1 9mm round that did hit and not the 19 others that didn't, not to mention the BG's mental state of being prepared to fight). A 45 would have failed under those same circumstances. A 38 snub to a mortally wounded BG ended it)

What no one factors in is Murphy's Law! Whatever caliber you choose when you are in "your situation" you probably could have used a different one a little better!

I have seen folks still walking around within the Federal system that have been hit with 9mm, 40, 45, 10mm, 5.56 and even 12 ga 00 Buck, About the only thing that isn't still walking around is one with a 12 ga slug or 308.

Bottom line is you can use all the pie charts in the world to make your choice with but Mr. Murphy don't care how enlightened you THINK you are.

 

[AlwaysVigilant]

I take the logic approach based on the other things involved with caliber selection. Training is the most important thing, IMHO, so the question gets boiled down into smaller chunks.

How much money do you have to spend on ammo? More specifically to practice a ton, more than the stuff you will carry. Cost is a big factor with some people of limited means. It takes a lot of round down range to get good at shooting defensively, and training courses are not known for frugality of ammo usage.

Availability of the chosen ammo in your AO. The internet is fine, but sometimes its nice to run down to the store and pick it up too...and then there is shipping.

Capacity in the size firearm you are looking to carry. I would love to carry a 10mm all the time, but I need a smaller gun most days, and I feel more comfortable with more bullets on tap. The round size has some serious limitations in capacity in small guns.

Your ability as a shooter, often overlooked, but important. Some of the characteristics of high pressure rounds make them better suited for things that you may not be able to perform with your skill level, and conversely, some of the rounds recoil properties take more skill to overcome.

Then there is what you are likely to face based on where you live. A pistol might be called upon for 4 legged attackers as well, some really big ones in fact. Or, there may be a greater chance of facing multiple bad guys than there is a mountain lion or bear.


My $.02

 

[lucky4034]

.22lr if thats the only thing you can be quick and accurate with under pressure (like my mom for instance). Shot placement and training trumps all

 

[Birds Away]

I agree that it's not really going to be answered, at least not to the precision that folks really want. You can draw general conclusions among a wide disparity, .22 LR vs .44 magnum for example, but it gets a lot more fuzzy when you get into the common duty rounds. You are spot on, simply too many variables that can't reliably be known and measured.

I would alter the advise slightly about choosing what to carry though. Carrying the largest that you can effectively use is rather nebulous, and what defines "effective"? Like you say, there's various measurements of accuracy and speed. Let's also consider there's huge variations in skill. Jerry Miculek will likely outshoot me with a Hi-Point regardless of what I use. That's irrelevant to my own selection, though. That's why I say find what you shoot accurately the fastest in any of the acceptable calibers. I firmly believe that speed and accuracy matter much more once you're in a duty caliber than the the slight differences among them.

I've posted my personal criteria on how I measure this several times. What can I pull and put 3 "A" box hits on the fastest at 7 yards. That's a pretty "average" shooting. It is, in my opinion, the simplest measure of what I'm best with. Now, I'll train and practice at other distances, with multiple targets, on the move, etc. I'm one of the lucky ones with both a personal range and access to a range that allows strings of fire, shooting on the move, etc. I will keep those times and compare. Without exception, what I am fastest with on my simple test will also be what I'm fastest with on more complex ones. It translates over. Maybe not in the same proportions (.3 seconds faster on this test, .7 on that one) but the ranking is the same. For me right now its the Sig P220 with aftermarket sights and the short reset trigger. It happens to be in .45.

I will confess to some hypocrisy, however. For on duty use I prefer heavy and slow bullets because of their performance against intermediate barriers. Off duty when its pretty unlikely I'll have to shoot through a windshield or the like, I find this much less of an issue. Because I don't care for a lot of logistics, I tend to not expand into new calibers. I've never shot a .327, for example. I consolidated awhile back and got rid of everything not .38/.357, .40, and .45. If not for uniformed detail requirements, I'd probably ditch .40 as well.

I have consolidated to 9mm because that is what I shoot the best. I am transitioning to an alloy version of my all steel EDC because I think it will help slightly with transitions. Deciding on the caliber you shoot best with out a lot of time wasted just allows more time to train with that weapon/caliber and maximize your potential. Previously, I wasted time in going back and forth until finally deciding to concentrate on one. This was the best decision for me and may apply to others as well. Having too many platforms and calibers can be counter-productive. Lots of wisdom in your posts, as usual.

 

[eldirector]

What have I learned from studies and conversations like this?

Handgun rounds are not very effective at stopping a determined attacker. For every "stop" by a single shot of a mouse gun, there is someone who walks away from a full mag-dump from a .45. OK, that may be a stretch. But I hope you get my point.

Even in the quoted "study", in the BEST case (the .357) 1 of every 10 did not stop. AT ALL.

So, carry the most powerful caliber/cartridge you can shoot well, and as many rounds as you can. Use high-quality ammunition in whatever you carry. Shot placement is as important as caliber (train). And finally, keep punching holes until it is over.

That actually isn't a bad article. I've read similar a few times. Some decent data, and a lot of opinion. Ends up in a decent place, though.

 

[GBolt]

Shouldn't that last young lady visit her gynecologist?

 

[Hohn]

.22lr if thats the only thing you can be quick and accurate with under pressure (like my mom for instance). Shot placement and training trumps all

Unless it's a .25

 

[DCM]

In that gel pic, the 10mm looks like there was a mushroom cloud behind it lol.

 

[SILVERBACK]

, how about what you already have, most will have mine is the best and I can pee farther than you type answer.. A .22 will kill anything deader than Hammer's Hell, 1 shot with a .22 or 14 with a 40 S&W you never know which one will do the job. Would I carry a .22 , yes if that is all I had.

 

[gregkl]

I have consolidated to 9mm because that is what I shoot the best. I am transitioning to an alloy version of my all steel EDC because I think it will help slightly with transitions. Deciding on the caliber you shoot best with out a lot of time wasted just allows more time to train with that weapon/caliber and maximize your potential. Previously, I wasted time in going back and forth until finally deciding to concentrate on one. This was the best decision for me and may apply to others as well. Having too many platforms and calibers can be counter-productive. Lots of wisdom in your posts, as usual.

I think that being new to shooting after a long layoff and not carrying yet may be the reason I can't decide what to carry. I'll have to do a lot of shooting and see what works best with the guns I own and maybe see if I need to buy something else. I have no compact guns other than a 5-shot snub nose and I think I want to carry more than that. At the same time I want to carry concealed as comfortable as I can so I will carry more often.

, how about what you already have, most will have mine is the best and I can pee farther than you type answer.. A .22 will kill anything deader than Hammer's Hell, 1 shot with a .22 or 14 with a 40 S&W you never know which one will do the job. Would I carry a .22 , yes if that is all I had.

My brother dropped a deer in it's tracks at a pretty good distance with a .22Short! Hit the neck and broke a vertebrae.

 

[AceDerringer]

HK USP 40 SW all year...with typically 180 jhp.

 

[Jeremy1066]

In that gel pic, the 10mm looks like there was a mushroom cloud behind it lol.

That's the point

 

[88E30M50]

I've bounced through a bunch of calibers and have carried anything from .380 up to .45. Right now, what works best for me is a Glock 23 in .40. For some reason, that gun just seems to work for me. The first time I shot it, I came away thinking 'I can't miss with this thing'. I have guns that I like more, guns that I like to shoot better and guns that I want to be able to shoot better, but at this point in time, The G23 is what I seem to be able to ring steel fastest with. I wish I could shoot my 1911s as well as this, but I cannot. My CZ Compact is about neck in neck with it, but the .40 round rings steel with more authority than the 9 does. I know it's not scientific, but if I can ring steel louder with a .40, then I suppose it should follow that I can ring the bell of an attacker louder too. I practice with my main carry guns regularly and when one of those lets me shoot better than I can with the G23, it will become the main carry gun. They are all pretty close but the .40 seems to be what works for me at this point in my life.

I believe that any of the standard SD calibers will do it's job if the shooter does their job. The one criteria that has caused a big change in carry habits in the last two years for me is capacity. I think I have an irrational fear of coming up short in terms of the number of rounds carried. Right now, 13+1 is my preferred minimum, with two spare mags. If I carry a 1911, I have 4 spare mags in various pockets and mag holders. My CZ gets carried with 14+1 and a pair of spare 16 rounders. It may be a form of OCD or something, but I just don't feel right with less than 30 rounds on tap right now.

 

[Birds Away]

I think that being new to shooting after a long layoff and not carrying yet may be the reason I can't decide what to carry. I'll have to do a lot of shooting and see what works best with the guns I own and maybe see if I need to buy something else. I have no compact guns other than a 5-shot snub nose and I think I want to carry more than that. At the same time I want to carry concealed as comfortable as I can so I will carry more often.



My brother dropped a deer in it's tracks at a pretty good distance with a .22Short! Hit the neck and broke a vertebrae.

Hey Greg, if you would like to shoot any of mine we could meet up after work. I have a sub and two compacts you could try out. Let me know.

 

[gregkl]

Hey Greg, if you would like to shoot any of mine we could meet up after work. I have a sub and two compacts you could try out. Let me know.

Thanks. That would be fun. Where about do you live or where could we meet?

 

[Birds Away]

I work in West Lafayette and usually shoot at Applied Ballistics. Probably going early next week. Usually get there about 4:30 or so.

 

[Bapak2ja]

As I thought, I learned a great deal from reading replies to my initial post. Thanks for the education.

 

[gregkl]

I'll PM you sometime. Next week won't work for me, but most any other week works. Thanks again.