Bang with finger off trigger

[BigMatt]

https://czusamedia.s3.amazonaws.com/files/cz527_en.pdf

According to the manual:

"For safety reasons do not adjust the set-trigger travel as too short, as the rifle with an activated set-trigger is very sensitive to
shock, and during handling the rifle could unintentionally discharge."

Tell your friend to re-adjust the set trigger so it won't unintentionally discharge.

I have had a few CZ527's and CZ550's and they are da bomb when the set trigger is adjusted correctly.

 

[JettaKnight]

Sounds like a lot of people here need to buy Ruger's with all the safety "features", 20 pound triggers, and a 1000 word essay on gun safety stamped into the frame.


Why do people think they can have their cake an eat it too? Lighter, shorter triggers are inherently more dangerous. If you can't accept the risk, don't get the gun.

Eez gon, Eez dangerous.

 

[Manatee]

Set triggers, whether single set or double set are SUPPOSED to be 'hair' triggers. For competition, some shooters set their double set Sharps triggers so light that a mere touch to the side of the trigger will trip the sear. I wouldn't recommend that in almost any circumstance, but competition shooters are a breed unto themselves.

Never stage the single set trigger while moving around (hunting, plinking, etc).

 

[CountryBoy19]

I have seen 2 in my life. One by me, one by my cousin.

First, by me, was AR-15 in .458 socom using reloads. Had fired over 50 loads through this gun. Never noticed a burr around firing pin hole until opening morning of deer season chambering a round and boom... gun was on safe, finger not in trigger. Inspect brass, no firing pin marks, only a very, very light ring around the primer from the burr. Problem corrected and it never occurred again.

Second, by cousin, was the R700 "phenomenon". Cousin chambered a round and upon taking rifle off safety, finger nowhere near trigger, the rifle fired.

 

[OWGEM]

My friend has returned the gun to ZC. He set the adjustment screw to the strongest setting for the set trigger and it still malfunctioned. Upon inspection there was excessive wear between the trigger and set trigger sear. Less than 100 rounds through gun, looks like a defect.

 

[snapping turtle]

Never had one go off without the trigger pulled and have been shooting a rem 700 in .222 rem since the 1980's.

I think there is more to the story a out the rem triggers than has come to light.

 

[92ThoStro]

Interesting. I wonder if those cops, not soldiers like i sad above, will ever get in touch with Remington. They had the best documented case, and are trained professionals. I guess what the expert said could be true. I imagine police do a lot of their own gun work. Or do they have an officer that is also a gunsmith? I bet they do a lot of modifications. Thanks for the link.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Interesting. I wonder if those cops, not soldiers like i sad above, will ever get in touch with Remington. They had the best documented case, and are trained professionals. I guess what the expert said could be true. I imagine police do a lot of their own gun work. Or do they have an officer that is also a gunsmith? I bet they do a lot of modifications. Thanks for the link.

Few of us are gunsmiths are do much in the way of modifications. Any modifications we do but must be done by a range armorer or pass the inspection of a range armorer if done by an outside gun smith. Duty pistols and other issued weapons must only be repaired or modified by the range armorer. I'd say the vast majority are stock.

 

[Hookeye]

The 700 old style trigger can be set light, the spring for reset is of short length and few coils, if one adjusts it too light, then it won't reset.
Leave the friggin' trigger alone unless one knows how to set it light and safe.

Evidently a lot of people are too damn stupid to do that.

They own screwdrivers and use their reproductive organs probably even more irresponsibly.

Real dang simple, change the springs if you want it lighter and safer, and even then, you can only go as light as your tolerances allow, and you can test it after you adjust it to make sure it's done right. But a lot of people just tap the barrel on the bench and call it "good to go".

I've seen some supposed 'smiths do that.

And I've bought two old style trigger systems set unsafe by previous owners.

I've never had a problem with my 700 triggers. But then, I'm not stupid.

Also, when emptying a gun that doesn't block the firing pin, you don't run the rounds fully into the chamber. Evidently a few hammer handed morons and or clueless shmucks don;'t understand how to operate a gun in a safe manner, they ram rounds in and out of the chamber..............and do so with the barrel pointed in unsafe directions.

They ought to shove the muzzle in their mouths.

Hells bells people, I owned a 660 as a freakin 6th grader and knew how to safely unload a blind magazine rifle.

Now, I did later get a 600 (couple yrs ago) with an unsafe trigger (prev owner didn't know what the hell he was doing). It had a sloppy housing so I couldn't get it super light, but with a spring change, did get it down to 28 oz.

Another shooter was interested in the rifle and I made sure it was empty, handed it to him for inspection. He asked to try the trigger since I told him i changed springs (longer springs of slightly smaller wire diameter, gave it an actual working range).

He racks the bolt and it clicks. He raises his voice out of fear and tells me, in the company of others mind you, that I set it wrong.

It was all i could do not to smack the barrel up side his head. But I didn't.

I smiled and politely asked him to try it again and this time keep his fat finger out of the trigger guard. Yup, he had it in there first time (I was watching) and he never knew it.
Wonder how many other folks who lack brains and or sensitivity in their fingers do similar stunts, hurt or kill others and then go to an attorney saying they didn't have their fat arsed finger in the trigger.

He didn't believe me, but tried it again, safe. I took the rifle, inspected it and set the trigger, flipped the safety off and on, bashed the damn gun's buttstock on the carpeted cement floor hard, repeatedly, flipped the safety, bashed the barrel on a wood frame.........................it never tripped.

Unless the trigger was pulled.

Yeah maybe Big Green had some unsafe guns, but don't you believe that terrible show. Anybody with half a brain could see the spin and lawyer speak, leading statements.

If one watched that, and truly believes the nonsense..................you're too stupid to own a gun, sell it and leave the sport.

 

[Hookeye]

The show................what sniper would have a gun that would go off when he didn't want it to?
My guess is that the footage shown was a "how not to set a Remington trigger", not an actual demonstration of a problem in the design.
Probably left that bit of info out, considering how they tried other spin in the program.

 

[Hookeye]

Remington might have had some unsafe stuff go out now and then, but my guess is that the % is super small, much much smaller than that hyped by the media and..............................the majority of incidents resulting in tragedy had more operator error than mechanical.

But dead kids pull at the heartsrings and when those get tugged a lot of people refuse to think.

P*ssed off? Yup.

It's the same kind of hype and lies put forth in the Zimmerman trial and frankly I'm sick of it.

Let the BS Rem 700 show die as it should.

 

[HoughMade]

Kid wouldn't be dead if the parent had observed just a couple of the 4 rules.

 

[CountryBoy19]

The 700 old style trigger can be set light, the spring for reset is of short length and few coils, if one adjusts it too light, then it won't reset.
Leave the friggin' trigger alone unless one knows how to set it light and safe.

Evidently a lot of people are too damn stupid to do that.

They own screwdrivers and use their reproductive organs probably even more irresponsibly.

I've never had a problem with my 700 triggers. But then, I'm not stupid.

Your rant is misguided... very misguided. Implying that those that have experienced the issue are stupid is of pure ignorance I hope. If not of simply ignorance, you're a fool.

FWIW, My cousin's R700 that did this was with a new style trigger and had never been touched. Was within a few months old, and had only about 100 rounds through it. It still had the thread sealant on the adjustment screws. AFAIK it has never done it again but all it takes is one time for it to happen to ruin your world.

Also, just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it isn't a problem. When that news story aired we had a poll here on INGO to settle a dispute that started much like this here is starting to go. You would be surprised that nearly a quarter of INGO members had it happen to them and/or witnessed it happen to somebody they were watching shoot. Are you implying that all of those people are stupid morons that mucked with their triggers? IIRC, some of them were even experienced shooters and LEO's... are they all stupid as you say?

 

[Hookeye]

Not saying folks don't have rifles that go bang when they don't want them to.
Am saying that most folks don't know why they went spooky bang.

Been around guns and shooters all my life.

IMHO most folks are stupid, whether they own a gun or not.

Not knowing something doesn't make a person stupid. Blowing smoke up people's arses does.
I've seen plenty of LEO, Mil and longtime hunter/shooter who is still pretty clueless.

 

[HoughMade]

Like all things mechanical (and all things made by men) sometimes a part will not quite do what it is supposed to do. Occasionally a sear will release when the trigger is not touched. I have absolutely no trouble believing that (this is why the "keep it pointed in a safe direction" and "treat every gun as if it is loaded" rules are so important).

Acknowledging that and accusing Remington of a 50+ year conspiracy of silence and that its rifles are any more likely to "go bang" when unintended are 2 very different things.

Aside from the issues raised in the Remington video (which are some pretty good points to consider), I have never seen any evidence that Remington 700s have produced more unintended discharges than rifles built by Winchester, Browning, Savage, etc., etc., etc.

 

[CountryBoy19]

While not empirical data, the poll seemed to indicate a very high number of INGO members that have personally witnessed or had happen to them an R700 discharging without touching the trigger. I have no data to back up my point, but I would guess that not nearly that many would say the same about other makes of rifle. Either way, the data is extremely hard to collect in this...

I'm not going to sidetrack this too much more, but I will say that if I company knows about a safety issue and chooses to do nothing because it is hard to track down and/or prevent from happening, they're covering it up... I don't intend to throw Remington under the bus but I don't think they are completely innocent either. It would be extremely unlikely that they just didn't know about the issue...

Stuff happens with mechanical devices, it only seemed to happen more often with the R700...

I'm out now before this thread degrades into a pissing match...

 

[octalman]

The show................what sniper would have a gun that would go off when he didn't want it to?
My guess is that the footage shown was a "how not to set a Remington trigger", not an actual demonstration of a problem in the design.
Probably left that bit of info out, considering how they tried other spin in the program.

I watched the Yellow Journalism piece on the 700. Steaming pile of you know what.

As with any mechanical device, amateur gunsmithing will lead to bad things. Never clean a gun and it becomes the manufacturer's fault if something bad happens? Point ANY gun in an unsafe direction - and the manufacturer is at fault? Can anyone document a gun firing and hurting someone when it was pointed in a safe direction?

Did the old Remington Engineer design a perfect trigger system? NO. Did he design an inherently unsafe trigger? NO. Owners have the final say whether a gun is handled in a safe manner.

I have a relative that bought a used pistol. Based entirely on the word of the seller that it functioned perfectly, the relative chambered a round - while in his workshop. Loud boom and a hole through a wall, desk, and another wall. Gun returned to the original owner the next day. Very lucky nobody hurt.

 

[Hookeye]

Remington® Model 700™ Network: Video Library

Summary:
Couldn't repro the problem on specific rifles.
At least one in the above vid was a rusted pile of crap.
Mil/LEO stuff that had problems were adjusted/modified (mil even changed procedure).

Not saying there might not be a prob once in a great while, but it is not nearly the level reported.

I've bought 2 old style Rem trigger rifles that were adjusted by prev owner to unsafe (one was made safe before ever loading it, upon initial inspection it was noticed to be in unsafe condition). The other was of heavy trigger, and thought to be OK (in dry fire). Taking it to the range it worked OK..........for a few shots and then went boom without a finger on the trigger (trigger was pulled but no bang- it went off a few seconds after hand removed from rifle- rifle still on sandbags and pointed safely down range). That rifle did it twice and was then taken apart. Prev owner had the trigger all jacked up. new springs and proper adjustment got it to a safe 28 oz.

I also had a TC Renegade MZ fire without finger on the trigger. There it is strongly suspected that a wood chip from a bit fuzzy of an inlet got into the workings. It had abut 75 shots without issue, was bought new by me, and upon disassembly a chip fell out. All MZ's bought since then were inspected before firing and inletting cleaned up if needed.

Saw a Colt series 80 GC skip one off the floor at a range. Finger was not on the trigger, factory sear and trigger and not set light. That was the hourglass pc of the firing pin block wearing to the point it deformed slightly and locked the firing pin fwd. It did so on the last round of practice and went BOOM when the owner dropped the slide later to shoot for score. I watched that guy have the BOOM. Finger was not on the trigger.

I sold my little 600 with the made safe trigger, to a nice guy who tripped it initially by closing the bolt with his finger on the trigger. He said he didn't, I watched him do it (was empty, both of us inspected the chamber/action). He swore he didn't, but he was wrong. He couldn't feel with the side of his finger (injury?) and since he didn't notice he was on the trigger, thought he wasn't. Even if no injury, not everybody has fine pitch feel.

Bet a lot of the oops we hear being blamed on Big Green is of a similar nature.

Honest mistakes, the problem not what folks think it to be.

 

[Mark 1911]

WOW. They know about it, and warn you about it, but don't change the design to prevent it? That's f-ing stupid.

This one will not be on my wish list!

 

[cintile]

thats not cool