Bang with finger off trigger

[OWGEM]

I have seen threads where there occurred an accidental discharge with no finger on the trigger. Personally I thought that was very rare and I would never see something like that. Well I did.


My friends and I were at the range the other day. One had just acquired a CZ 527 in .223. This bolt action carbine has what CZ calls a set trigger. Trigger functions normally or one pushes it forward and it becomes a hair trigger. This was the second time at the range with this carbine.


My friend has the carbine on a rest and pushes the trigger to the forward set position. Takes aim and bang. He says he was pretty sure his finger was not on the trigger. We observe him do the same set trigger and then bring the carbine to his shoulder with finger off trigger. Bang. Repeat procedure and another bang. No finger on trigger.


Now the manual warns of such a possibility, however there was no issues the first time at the range.


Guess I should never say never.

 

[Hoosierman]

Guess it's time to send it back to CZ. If it's repeatable, take a video, and send it in with the gun.

 

[Sylvain]

Kirk will love this one.

 

[giovani]

I just shot a friends cz with this style trigger and thought it was kind of an odd setup, not sure I would buy one.

 

[other dave]

I had a 527FS in .223 a few years ago and loved it. Very well made and extremely accurate. Maybe you got one built on a Monday or a Friday.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Isnt that a dirtly little secret of the Remington 700 platform? Wasnt there a class action brewing due to a supposed rash of "fingerless" NDs where some engineer claims he found a critical flaw in the design?

Yup. My google fu is strong.

[video=youtube_share;jx1_wC2PHwE]http://youtu.be/jx1_wC2PHwE[/video]

 

[HoughMade]

That was the claim, but the evidence is not all that clear. There was some interesting evidence that lack of cleaning and maintenance as well as owner "modifications" were an issue.

 

[M67]

Isnt that a dirtly little secret of the Remington 700 platform? Wasnt there a class action brewing due to a supposed rash of "fingerless" NDs where some engineer claims he found a critical flaw in the design?

I don't think it was ever a dirty little secret, just something people failed to realize. Anyone who messes with a Remington trigger knows you can get them pretty light, but sometimes you can get them light enough where the sear will disengage when you close the bolt hard, or when the rifle is hit hard. That's why after adjusting them you need to give the rifle a few good whacks by "dropping" the rifle, recoil pad first, on the ground. Just to make sure it won't let go.

Another thing about those triggers is crud, like the old Timney Knight triggers on the muzzleloaders. They'd get so caked in crap sometimes they'd do funny things.

 

[shooter521]

We observe him do the same set trigger and then bring the carbine to his shoulder with finger off trigger. Bang. Repeat procedure and another bang. No finger on trigger.


Now the manual warns of such a possibility

WOW. They know about it, and warn you about it, but don't change the design to prevent it? That's f-ing stupid.

 

[Mgderf]

The dreaded "fingerless bang".

Something doesn't sound quite right here.

 

[OWGEM]

WOW. They know about it, and warn you about it, but don't change the design to prevent it? That's f-ing stupid.

The manual details how to adjust the set trigger and warns it can be set too light. My friend had not adjusted the trigger. Worked fine first time out to the range.

 

[OWGEM]

The dreaded "fingerless bang".

Something doesn't sound quite right here.

I agree, a carbine that fires with no finger on trigger is not right. Duh!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Personally I thought that was very rare and I would never see something like that. Well I did.

I find this highly unlikely as I read this gun espurt forum call INGO and INGO says that this cannot happen.

Here is INGO's evidence that it cannot happen, it is Dee Nile:



Hey, have I told you guys about the 870 at Shootrite?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

We observe him do the same set trigger and then bring the carbine to his shoulder with finger off trigger. Bang. Repeat procedure and another bang. No finger on trigger.


Now the manual warns of such a possibility

Operator error. The set trigger isn't "set" and then the rifle moved around. The trigger is "set" as part of the trigger pull process once the rifle is on target. Same as keeping the finger off the trigger until you are ready for it to go bang, you don't set the trigger until you are ready for it to go bang. A set trigger can reduce the trigger pull to less than half a pound of pressure, so just the inertia of jostling the rifle will be enough to set it off. This is why the manual, and anyone teaching the use of set triggers, will tell you to dry fire it repeatedly before using live ammo, to dial it in a bit if its adjustable, AND TO NOT SET IT UNTIL THE NEXT MOVEMENT IS PULLING THE TRIGGER.

From CZ themselves:

"An activated set-trigger is very sensitive to shock and during handling could unintentionally discharge if the set trigger is adjusted with too little travel. The safety of the SST adjustment can be checked with the rifle unloaded by repeated opening and closing of the bolt combined with moving of the safety to its “ON” and “OFF” positions in both set and unset modes. If the set trigger adjustment (engagement screw “D”) is too light, it will go off when doing this."

 

[92ThoStro]

I dont know anything about the set trigger on a cz... but...The Remington issue would be an accidental not a negligent discharge, it is gun error, not operator error. There is a whole documentary about it on Netflix. Some soldiers even caught it on camera. They touched the bolt and the gun fired. Someone even accidentally shot their own kid and killed em, kid.was behind a trailer. Gun not in safe direction.
IIRC the inventor even admitted it was a design flaw but Remington did not fix it because of cost.

 

[DC47374]

Now I must have a CZ with a set trigger.....thanks a lot guys.
Of course I will make sure it is set properly.
If your buddy wants to sell it......

 

[IndyDave1776]

Operator error. The set trigger isn't "set" and then the rifle moved around. The trigger is "set" as part of the trigger pull process once the rifle is on target. Same as keeping the finger off the trigger until you are ready for it to go bang, you don't set the trigger until you are ready for it to go bang. A set trigger can reduce the trigger pull to less than half a pound of pressure, so just the inertia of jostling the rifle will be enough to set it off. This is why the manual, and anyone teaching the use of set triggers, will tell you to dry fire it repeatedly before using live ammo, to dial it in a bit if its adjustable, AND TO NOT SET IT UNTIL THE NEXT MOVEMENT IS PULLING THE TRIGGER.

From CZ themselves:

"An activated set-trigger is very sensitive to shock and during handling could unintentionally discharge if the set trigger is adjusted with too little travel. The safety of the SST adjustment can be checked with the rifle unloaded by repeated opening and closing of the bolt combined with moving of the safety to its “ON” and “OFF” positions in both set and unset modes. If the set trigger adjustment (engagement screw “D”) is too light, it will go off when doing this."

Are you suggesting that he should read the instructions first? Wouldn't he have to turn in his man card if he did something like that?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Are you suggesting that he should read the instructions first? Wouldn't he have to turn in his man card if he did something like that?

No kidding... next he'll be suggesting that we stop and ask for directions...

 

[SaintsNSinners]

I had an AR do this once.. it was during BRM and something broke in the trigger pack. Did a mag dump infront of my drill sergeant. Had a good laugh from the front leaning rest when he tried to say I was wrong and did a mag dump as well.


It is possible after all guns are machines and if not maintained they can fail. If I remember right my basic rifle was one of the companies oldest rifles so who knows how many thousands of rounds had been through it

 

[HoughMade]

I dont know anything about the set trigger on a cz... but...The Remington issue would be an accidental not a negligent discharge, it is gun error, not operator error. There is a whole documentary about it on Netflix. Some soldiers even caught it on camera. They touched the bolt and the gun fired. Someone even accidentally shot their own kid and killed em, kid.was behind a trailer. Gun not in safe direction.
IIRC the inventor even admitted it was a design flaw but Remington did not fix it because of cost.

Two sides to every story and that doc did not even feign objectivity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_KVS1hIbQg

"The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him."
- Proverbs 18:17 (ESV)