"Bad guy pulls gun", what CAN you do?

[heavyhitter1k]

Just a question that I debate once in a while, a "what if" situation...

So let's say you are somewhere in public, like a retail store. Waiting in line to check out. While waiting, someone runs in, pulls a gun, and demands the cashier give them money. You are within say 20 feet of said bad guy who is currently displaying firearm at the clerk.

Are you justified in shooting said bad guy? For reason of not knowing if he / she will turn that firearm on you after they get the cash...

A lot of what-ifs in the scenerio, but basically want to hear opinions or possible legal points if you are in the immediate vicinity of a bad guy with a guy but is not activly engaging YOU currently.

 

[MikeDVB]

You do not need to believe they will turn to shoot at you - the threat of imminent bodily injury or death is not limited to yourself. You can protect others.

That said - I can't tell you what I would do in such a situation. Are there 500 people around? No people around? What's behind the perpetrator? How close to other people are they?

Until you're in such a situation it's hard to say - especially considering the monumental amount of variables that exist in any such situation that cannot adequately be conveyed in a post on a web forum. Just like I could describe how my favorite food tastes to the best of my ability - my description in no way compares to the real thing.

 

[jve153]

You are allowed to shoot them based on the fact they are committing a forcable (sp?) felony on a third party. I would keep mind of angles as you are still responsible for fliers. They do not have to be threatening you, just a person in the vicinity.

 

[eldirector]

The long version:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/2010/title35/ar41/ch3.pdf

The short version:
State Law offers some protection if you defend a 3rd party from a forcible felony.

 

[heavyhitter1k]

You do not need to believe they will turn to shoot at you - the thread of imminent bodily injury or death is not limited to yourself. You can protect others.

That said - I can't tell you what I would do in such a situation. Are there 500 people around? No people around? What's behind the perpetrator? How close to other people are they?

Until you're in such a situation it's hard to say - especially considering the monumental amount of variables that exist in any such situation that cannot adequately be conveyed in a post on a web forum. Just like I could describe how my favorite food tastes to the best of my ability - my description in no way compares to the real thing.

That's basically what I was thinking. Obviously there are MANY MANY different scenerios that could be in play, just wasn't sure exactly on the bolded part there...

 

[Bunnykid68]

Just call the police and let them do their job

 

[MikeDVB]

Just call the police and let them do their job

Depending on the scenario and all of those unknown variables this may or may not be the best course of action. Waiting on the police to arrive could result in you or somebody else dieing - but taking action could have the same results.

Again - hard to know without being there in that exact situation. It's nice to arm-chair-quarterback what you would or wouldn't do or what would or wouldn't be best but you know...

 

[esrice]

Legally you'd be justified (given your fairly broad scenario).

Tactically? Morally? Those are situationally dependent.

If you'd like an opportunity to make such decisions in real-time with real people come train with us at the Lab (see links below).

 

[rockhopper46038]

I participated in a FoF training session where this was one of the scenarios. Several of us drew and attempted to shoot the bad guy. One of us quietly slipped out the back door.

It would be a legal shoot, from your description. Right decision? Hard to say.

 

[Yup!]

Given your scenario, its very likely that they just want to get the money and go.

I carry primarily so that I can protect my family. If I'm far enough away to take cover and draw at low ready I will. If I shoot or not depends on the scenario. I"m perfectly willing to do so, but if all he wants is money, he can have it and leave. I don't need to spend a few days in Jail nor do I need to expose my family to the circus that would follow if I shot him.

Now, if he is doing something other than asking for money, I'm prepared to take the action.

Hard to tell unless you are there, but that's what Im thinking based on how it's playing out in my head based on the few details you provided.

 

[Denny347]

Just a question that I debate once in a while, a "what if" situation...

So let's say you are somewhere in public, like a retail store. Waiting in line to check out. While waiting, someone runs in, pulls a gun, and demands the cashier give them money. You are within say 20 feet of said bad guy who is currently displaying firearm at the clerk.

Are you justified in shooting said bad guy? For reason of not knowing if he / she will turn that firearm on you after they get the cash...

A lot of what-ifs in the scenario, but basically want to hear opinions or possible legal points if you are in the immediate vicinity of a bad guy with a guy but is not activly engaging YOU currently.

You are witnessing an armed robbery in progress. Your heart will be racing like you've just finished running a race, adrenaline is getting dumped into your bloodstream, vision narrows. Now how confident are you to hit the target center mass at 20 feet in this condition? Can you do so without hitting the clerk,customers? Can you live with the results if you do? Think about all of this in the .5 seconds you have to make a choice and carry it out. Welcome to my world.

 

[MikeDVB]

Welcome to my world.

While the physical descriptions you've given are accurate - we're far from your world as non-law-enforcement.

If we make a mistake we'll certainly end up in prison for many years.

If you make a mistake - what do you think happens? Suspension? Slap on the wrist? Lose your job?

I'm willing to bet you won't end up in a penitentiary.

Understand I'm not a cop hater - I have nothing against you and I appreciate what you do every day... Just try to understand that there is less risk involved for you as an officer than there is for us as non-officers.

 

[Glock19]

You are witnessing an armed robbery in progress. Your heart will be racing like you've just finished running a race, adrenaline is getting dumped into your bloodstream, vision narrows. Now how confident are you to hit the target center mass at 20 feet in this condition? Can you do so without hitting the clerk,customers? Can you live with the results if you do? Think about all of this in the .5 seconds you have to make a choice and carry it out. Welcome to my world.

Everyone is gonna say what they would do, but unless you've been in this type of situation before I DONT BELIEVE YOU!(Not you Denny347, but in general) I've seen seasoned officers who never had to pull their weapon hesitate. No one knows until they've been there.

 

[Yup!]

Everyone is gonna say what they would do, but unless you've been in this type of situation before I DONT BELIEVE YOU!(Not you Denny347, but in general) I've seen seasoned officers who never had to pull their weapon hesitate. No one knows until they've been there.

I plan on going downtown for lunch tomorrow. I'll figure out tomorrow if that's what really happens. Everything is situational and no two scenarios are the same. So someone's guess here as to what they would do, is what they want to do, as the situation evolves they will change their response. In many cases they will be surprised at how they responded. None the less, there is no harm in thinking about it, and trying to guess how they would react.

 

[sloughfoot]

Whatever you decide to do, be mindful that the perp could have an accomplice on overwatch whose job is to shoot the citizen who reaches for a gun or tries to interfere.

 

[Denny347]

While the physical descriptions you've given are accurate - we're far from your world as non-law-enforcement.

If we make a mistake we'll certainly end up in prison for many years.

If you make a mistake - what do you think happens? Suspension? Slap on the wrist? Lose your job?

I'm willing to bet you won't end up in a penitentiary.

Understand I'm not a cop hater - I have nothing against you and I appreciate what you do every day... Just try to understand that there is less risk involved for you as an officer than there is for us as non-officers.

EVERY shooting I am involved with goes to a Grand Jury. The prosecutor will usually quickly decide where a non leo is involved. While Grand Juries are more predictable than a "standard" jury, I have little faith in them keeping me out of jail if I make a mistake. I screw up, it is a VERY real possibility. Since I work for a "big city", you can bet the farm that I will end up in Federal Court even on the cleanest of shoots...looking for a payday. I've been there before and it's ugly. I just don't see the "less risk". The public EXPECTS me to shoot less than a non LEO since I have all those fancy gadgets on my belt, "fancy" training, and a million cop shows where we have superhuman abilities to stop aggression. Joe Q public is not held to that standard. How many non LEO's in Indiana went to prison verses those who went free (shooting during the course of a VALID self defense)? I imagine the likelihood of you going to prison is not nearly as likely as you may think.

 

[Amishman44]

Everyone is gonna say what they would do, but unless you've been in this type of situation before I DONT BELIEVE YOU!(Not you Denny347, but in general) I've seen seasoned officers who never had to pull their weapon hesitate. No one knows until they've been there.

I think you hit the nail-on-the-head when it comes to the true answer here! No one truely knows how they will respond until they're faced with that situation.

Sort of like the difference between a barking dog and the one who's just sitting their watching...waiting! I'm not really concerned about all the hypothetical 'talker's'...if I were the bad guy, I'd be concerned about the guy who scratches his chin, say's 'Hmmm!' regarding the original question...and simply walks away! He ain't worried about it!

 

[bwframe]

Everyone is gonna say what they would do, but unless you've been in this type of situation before I DONT BELIEVE YOU!...
...I've seen seasoned officers who never had to pull their weapon hesitate. No one knows until they've been there.

I think you hit the nail-on-the-head when it comes to the true answer here! No one truely knows how they will respond until they're faced with that situation.

That's what we train for, isn't it?

 

[Fixer]

Whatever you decide to do, be mindful that the perp could have an accomplice on overwatch whose job is to shoot the citizen who reaches for a gun or tries to interfere.

And maybe a sniper on the roof a block away with a .50 cal to disable any police cars that try to follow. He will probably be wearing body armor so make sure it is a head shot.

 

[cobber]

Whatever you decide to do, be mindful that the perp could have an accomplice on overwatch whose job is to shoot the citizen who reaches for a gun or tries to interfere.

Accomplice, quite probably, although probably just a brother or cousin along for the ride. Seems like these clowns often act in groups. You should always watch your sixes anyway...

And maybe a sniper on the roof a block away with a .50 cal to disable any police cars that try to follow. He will probably be wearing body armor so make sure it is a head shot.

FIFY


Folks might want to understand immunity and tort law before engaging bad-guys on behalf of 3d parties.