"Bad guy pulls gun", what CAN you do?

[ghuns]

I imagine the likelihood of you going to prison is not nearly as likely as you may think.

I think you are right, but I would love to see the numbers. I would also love to see the number of LEOs who are currently in jail for on the job shootings.

I appreciate the work you and other LEOs do, so please don't take this as "cop bashing"; when you or another officer is dragged into court for a shooting, or anything else job related, who pays for your defense? Are you paid by your department for the time you spend in court? If you lose, how pays the settlement money? Since it's a work related incident, I would expect your employer and your union to have you covered.

When John Q. Public is dragged into court after a shooting by some dirtbag looking for a payday, the legal fees he faces are coming out of his pocket. His employer isn't paying his salary for the time he spends in court. If a judgement is made against him, he is paying out the settlement.

The perception that I, as a non-LEO, am more likely to end up in jail than a LEO for a mistake during a legit SD shooting may be flawed. But I am surely more likely to end up in bankruptcy court.

I just don't see how a LEO can argue that the legal and financial peril that they face is equal to, or greater, than that which we non-LEOs face.

As far as your superhuman abilities and fancy training, don't worry. The public gets a steady dose of NYPD wounding 9 bystanders when shooting at one BG. Or LAPD shooting up a truck occupied by two Asian women while looking for a LARGE black man. We know you all suck.

 

[Steve B]

Let's not forget. You could shoot the bad guy and save the day with no other innocent bystanders being hurt. Then get sued by the bystanders for mental trauma to them because of what they saw and the store for damaged merchandise and hazmat clean up. Welcome to America. Where the lawyers and the people you save could end up being worse than the bad guys.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Everyone is gonna say what they would do, but unless you've been in this type of situation before I DONT BELIEVE YOU!(Not you Denny347, but in general) I've seen seasoned officers who never had to pull their weapon hesitate. No one knows until they've been there.

I can't comment on exactly what I would do because the scenario as presented doesn't give me enough information to begin to formulate a plan of action. There's no information on backstop. That's crucial. There's no information on cover, or even concealment, that would be essential me to know how or if I could close that 20 ft distance. What's the gunman's demeanor? Is he shaking like a junky needing a fix or is he monomaniacly focussed on the cashier. I'd be much more wary of closing on a junky who's waving a gun around than on Mr. Monomaniacal just for fear of being shot accidentally. Even if I managed to close to point blank, barrel of my sidearm against the gunman's temple, the junky might still swing around and catch me, while I might be confident Mr. Monomaniacal would freeze. Which is all not to say that I would close to within the gunman's grappling range in the first place. Too many variables.

In general, I'm a pretty cool cucumber. I've been put in a situation where lethal force was used/threatened and my heart rate never climbed above baseline, but for me to make these kinds of decisions, I need more info than has been proffered.

God, I need my gun rights back so I can start taking FoF classes!

 

[Denny347]

I think you are right, but I would love to see the numbers. I would also love to see the number of LEOs who are currently in jail for on the job shootings.

I honestly don't know where to even look for them at, if they are even kept. I would guess that it is small for both sides.

I appreciate the work you and other LEOs do, so please don't take this as "cop bashing"; when you or another officer is dragged into court for a shooting, or anything else job related, who pays for your defense? Are you paid by your department for the time you spend in court? If you lose, how pays the settlement money? Since it's a work related incident, I would expect your employer and your union to have you covered.

I do not take honest questions regarding my profession as "cop bashing", ask away. It depends. If I am on-duty, City Legal spearheads the defense. However, if politics get in the way and the City turns against me (like the Brandon Johnson case) then it's the FOP. If you do not belong to the FOP (and many don't), the it's out of your own pocket. It's the City of Indianapolis that is usually top of the list, they have the deep pockets. However, having my name as a defendant on the civil suite means a Federal Jury could easily make me responsible for some or all of the money. It is in their hands, did I tell you how much
I trust juries?

When John Q. Public is dragged into court after a shooting by some dirtbag looking for a payday, the legal fees he faces are coming out of his pocket. His employer isn't paying his salary for the time he spends in court. If a judgement is made against him, he is paying out the settlement.

True, however, most dirty butts are looking for the deep pockets since they will usually settle. Working stiffs like us are last on the list because we usually have more debt than value.

The perception that I, as a non-LEO, am more likely to end up in jail than a LEO for a mistake during a legit SD shooting may be flawed. But I am surely more likely to end up in bankruptcy court.

It is very possible, again though, they generally only come after us individuals to make a point.

I just don't see how a LEO can argue that the legal and financial peril that they face is equal to, or greater, than that which we non-LEOs face.

Perception makes you think this but without data to back it up, it's only perception at this time.

As far as your superhuman abilities and fancy training, don't worry. The public gets a steady dose of NYPD wounding 9 bystanders when shooting at one BG. Or LAPD shooting up a truck occupied by two Asian women while looking for a LARGE black man. We know you all suck.

I was obviously being facetious .

 

[ghuns]

I was obviously being facetious .

And I was obviously

 

[Smokepole]

You are witnessing an armed robbery in progress. Your heart will be racing like you've just finished running a race, adrenaline is getting dumped into your bloodstream, vision narrows. Now how confident are you to hit the target center mass at 20 feet in this condition? Can you do so without hitting the clerk,customers? Can you live with the results if you do? Think about all of this in the .5 seconds you have to make a choice and carry it out. Welcome to my world.

Absolutely correct, now add in the fact that the BG is experiencing the same thing and you know it. You also have no idea if the poor schmuck behind the counter who is experiencing the same effects (or any other person in the place) is going to do something to spook the BG and set him off beginning a shooting spree. This is an all around bad situation with no good ending in sight. I'm thinking I just want to get the hell out of Dodge with my and my families lives intact. The question is how to do that? And add in the fact that we (at least I was) are usually taught that if a gun is pulled you MUST believe that the person wielding the weapon INTENDS to use it. You can't just assume that it is only to scare everybody because you don't know the BG, what he is capable of or intends to do. I know I am not a mind reader. And how many times have we read stories or seen videos of BG's that rob a place and get spooked and then go about shooting the place and/or people up. How much time do you have to react then?

An awful lot of information to process in AN EXCEPTIONALLY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME. THIS IS NOT SOMEPLACE THAT I WANT TO BE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! EVVVVVERRRRR ! ! !

 

[glockednlocked]

While being a super trooper cape crusader packing krypto-glock sound soo cool to some the truth is.....Not worth the trouble to inject myself into a theft that really is not my problem. I am past caring about this dirt bag stealing from meglomart and truth is in my town the clerk is more likely an Obozo voter who has no respect for me or my safety so oh well.... That said if dipstick petty criminal wants to step it up and pose a threat to me or mine well that makes it the day I pray never happens. I pray the lord makes my hand fast and my aim keen and all my training and determination to protect those I love bursts forth in overwhelming violence.

 

[msk]

While being a super trooper cape crusader packing krypto-glock sound soo cool to some the truth is.....Not worth the trouble to inject myself into a theft that really is not my problem. I am past caring about this dirt bag stealing from meglomart and truth is in my town the clerk is more likely an Obozo voter who has no respect for me or my safety so oh well.... That said if dipstick petty criminal wants to step it up and pose a threat to me or mine well that makes it the day I pray never happens. I pray the lord makes my hand fast and my aim keen and all my training and determination to protect those I love bursts forth in overwhelming violence.

I agree with you 100%

 

[sloughfoot]

And maybe a sniper on the roof a block away with a .50 cal to disable any police cars that try to follow. He will probably be wearing body armor so make sure it is a head shot.

You apparently didnt know John Carney. Its been 10 years since the accomplice took him out on Goshen road. John is still missed.

 

[Trigger Time]

Adrenaline affects different people in different ways. I use to live for that high it produces! People who've been there can understand what I mean. Took me a while to get over not having it and I did stupid stuff to try and replicate it. Legal stuff.


im not going to say for sure what I would do but I do know that if I see another innocent person in need of help I'm going to act and help. I hope karma would come back around and make sure if I or mine needed the same then someone would also be there if we couldn't help ourselves. This is one reason we see or hear stories of on and off duty Leo's, emt'a, firefighters, soldiers, sailors, marines, helping people in need. People with the mindset to do something bigger than themselves are usually in these professions. Not all are and not in them are either.

some people run away when faced with these situations. Most of those people probably should run because they wouldn't be helpfull anyways. People who can help won't be cowards and run. Even if that cost them their own life.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If we make a mistake we'll certainly end up in prison for many years.

If you make a mistake - what do you think happens? Suspension? Slap on the wrist? Lose your job?

In both cases the shooting will be investigated and turned over to a grand jury. There are no exceptions in IC for "unless it was an LEO". If you acted in good faith, were not reckless, and just missed...no charges. If the grand jury sees it otherwise, charges will be filed.

I don't get to randomly shoot people and just take a day for it.

 

[ghuns]

I don't get to randomly shoot people and just take a day for it.

Hmm, then why be a cop? Oh, yeah, the groupies. I forgot about the cop groupies.

Ok, don't call me Rambone, I'm sure he already posted it, but this too priceless not to share...

Man charged with assault of two women who NYPD officers shot

That DA could get a grand jury to indict a ham sammich.

 

[Jack Burton]

In this case the bad guy was obviously a bad guy because he stated his intentions of robbing a store.

However, other similar situations may not be quite as clear. If you see a guy dressed in street clothes pointing a gun as a woman and yellihg at her to get on the ground it very well may be an undercover officer arresting a felon kidnapper.

It is not the "pulling of the gun" that is the determining factor in what you do. The totality of the entire situation must be correctly determined in micro-seconds. If you can't do that, keep the gun in YOUR pocket.

 

[Smokepole]

Hmm, then why be a cop? Oh, yeah, the groupies. I forgot about the cop groupies.

Ok, don't call me Rambone, I'm sure he already posted it, but this too priceless not to share...

Man charged with assault of two women who NYPD officers shot

That DA could get a grand jury to indict a ham sammich.

WOW! You beat me to it. A criminal attorney that I know told me years ago that a Grand Jury doesn't mean a whole lot ( as far as guilt is concerned ) because a good prosecutor could get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich of just about anything. Something about no attorneys allowed inside to protect the witnesses against intentionally skewed questions that tend to make a person sound guilty or complicit no matter how they are answered. And that most people believe that the Prosecutor wouldn't have someone before the Grand Jury if there wasn't good reason to believe that they really are guilty leaving things HEAVILY tilted in favor of the Prosecutor and almost guaranteeing an indictment guilty or not.

They must teach that ham sandwich analogy in just about every law school across the country.

 

[ghuns]

They must teach that ham sandwich analogy in just about every law school across the country.

Heard it on Law and Order. That alone makes it gospel truth.

 

[Smokepole]

Heard it on Law and Order. That alone makes it gospel truth.

Love that show. THOSE shows.

 

[MisterChester]

If I were in that situation, I'd hide them draw and be at low ready. If all he wants is money, he probably won't shoot if the employees comply, and they'll leave. If they came in and just started shooting, that'd be different. Putting down a suspect in the middle of committing deadly harm to other people is a much better reason to shoot than "he wanted to steal money while armed".

 

[MikeDVB]

I don't get to randomly shoot people and just take a day for it.

I think you and I both know that's not what I was saying.

Regardless of how you slice it - a LEO on-duty is much more likely to walk away from a bad shoot financially intact and free from imprisonment than the average non-leo simply trying to defend themselves or somebody else.

Is it right? No. We are, however, all in the real world and things aren't always 'fair.'

 

[EdC]

One among my many concerns in such a situation is that if I shoot, and bad guy doesn't go down immediately, I've turned an armed robbery into gunfight in which non-participants could be shot by the bad guy. The bad guy isn't going to worry too much about back stops and unintended hits, I would think. No criminal issues for me, maybe civil issues, I don't know, I'm not a tort lawyer, but lots of personal moral issues for me to deal with if that happened.

Again, as many have already posted, the answer is "it depends" but this is just another consideration to throw into the mix.

 

[Borock]

1-call the police and let them do their job. 2-take mental notes about height, weight, clothes, skin color, tattoos, the get-away vehicle and anything else that would be helpful to police.

I would probably have my weapon drawn but out of sight so that if this crazy person turned my way and didn't like the shirt I was wearing, my defensive actions would be justified. I agree it could become a gunfight and the possibility of injury or death to innocents could be horrific.