Bad Experience with Carmel PD

[lovemachine]

This just proves everyone needs to be a lot more careful what they say. We have spies among us.

I'm definitely going to be a lot more careful starting right now.

 

[henktermaat]

This just proves everyone needs to be a lot more careful what they say. We have spies among us.

I'm definitely going to be a lot more careful starting right now.

Or you could just do like I do and not say anything that you don't want repeated in front of a judge already

 

[lovemachine]

Well, there's THAT.

 

[BBill]

haha

If you didn't, it would mean I hadn't done my job very well.

First and foremost, a tip of my hat to LS and his attorney, who did a capable job representing him. IMHO, it was a well-fought fight. One side wins, one side loses, but the process should keep its integrity.

Second, let me try to dispel any paranoia about "monitoring" of this site. When I go into court, I want to be the most prepared attorney in that courtroom. So, I spend more than the usual amount of time researching. LS has a certain... footprint... on the internet. It took me awhile to find this particular thread, but... I am good at what I do.

Third, a little about me. I basically grew up in Carmel, the product of a military family. I guess you guys in the courtroom didn't pick up on it, or chose to ignore it, but I'm an avid (and responsible) gun owner, with a LTCH myself. I worked for the City when this case started, but no longer do - I am with a firm. A firm that has a very specific policy about what its attorneys can and cannot talk about. Oh - one other thing, years ago, under a different nickname, I frequented several gun boards (and rec.guns back in the day) not much different from this one. So, between Atterbury and the other gun ranges around, and other gun boards, I've probably met most of you IRL or virtually in one place or another.

Finally, allow me to address The Case. Carmel has the best police officers around. To turn around something someone said up-thread, if you treat them right, they will be your best ally - and that includes gun rights. (There was one officer I had my doubts about, but he's gone. Kutnupe probably knows who I mean.) They are great cops. They are not, and we do not want them to be, lawyers. Sgt. Miller was ABSOLUTELY justified in citing LS. Maybe it was self defense, maybe it wasn't. But, as the judge said on the bench, that's for the judge to figure out. It wasn't personal to him, just like the hundreds of arrests LS made weren't personal. You all make it out like he was out to get LS. He wasn't. The only person making it personal was LS on this board.

Also, to LS - I really do think you were reckless. Indiana does (thank God) have a liberal self defense law, as well as a relatively liberal carry permit law. But, as you noted earlier, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. IMNSHO, you should've shot the f'n dog.

In my 7 years with Carmel, this was only the second ticket that I think has been issued on that ordinance. The first was a depressed guy shooting at chipmunks from his back porch.... toward Keystone. :doh: We did a guilty plea with him. The reality is that until now, we didn't have a clear idea of how our ordinance would fit into the self defense framework. Now we do. (In retrospect, I'm pretty sure I could've convinced the judge the dogs weren't vicious, too.)

Anyway, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to check back on this thread. I have gone to a firm now, so I don't have alot of free time, especially with soccer season coming up with my kids. But, I will try.

Oh - and Judge Poindexter is one of the finest judges I've ever practiced in front of. I'm not sure how long he will stay in that court, but Carmel is lucky to have him as long as he stays. He was a damn good prosecutor in Marion County, but he's a better judge.

And I can't resist this, either. Most of you in Indiana are either going to have primaries in May, or a general election in November (or both) for local government officials. Do your homework and vote! All politics is local. It may seem like petty stuff, but those people wield much control over our daily lives.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. Take care.

If you HAD convinced the judge they weren't vicious and they later mauled someones child you might have found yourself running from retribution-just saying

 

[4sarge]

Or you could just do like I do and not say anything that you don't want repeated in front of a judge already

No One, should Live in fear of speaking their mind or giving a personal opinion unless it violates the law. Thank God, the Local Police or Prosecutor doesn't have jurisdiction over your thoughts, personal opinions or political persuasion. What transpired IMO was unethical, illegal and immoral, Win at Any Cost Mentality. That's what Freedom and Liberty are all about

The Judge Rose Above That and Gave Common Sense to the Situation

 

[Denny347]

 

[T.Lex]

If you HAD convinced the judge they weren't vicious and they later mauled someones child you might have found yourself running from retribution-just saying

(On lunch break.)

Would've been just another day in the office. We are attorneys, not fortune tellers. The decision which cases to prosecute (even speeding cases) and which not, can have wide ranging impact (pardon the pun).

Even in this case, had we not prosecuted, and LS went postal, we'd have the same problem. Not that I think he will, just saying that we make the decision based on the information we have at the time, and the rest sorts itself out.

Oh, and people should only fear the natural consequences of free speech. Say something stupid, be prepared at some later date to have the stupidity revealed. Just be prepared to stand by what you say, just like LS did.

LS wasn't prosecuted for what he said/wrote, he was prosecuted for what he did on the date indicated on his ticket.

(On a related note, he was never 'arrested.' The citation was for a civil offense. I don't think it wouldn't even shown up on any records other than the court docket if he'd been found 'guilty'. You can't be 'arrested' for ordinance violations alone.)

 

[henktermaat]

Hey T.Lex, that kind of looks like you

 

[T.Lex]

haha

I'm too old to pull off that 3-day growth of beard look. Just makes me look creepy... er.

Edit:
Oh, and.... how can it be 'spying' if ya'all are doing it in public?

 

[Walter Zoomie]

Jeez...this T.Rex dude is completely full of himself...and full of crap.

Sgt. Miller was ABSOLUTELY justified in citing LS

Bullshirt. The cop should have used a little common sense, looked at the evidence, talked to the witnesses, and gone to Dunkin Donuts.

And the prosecutor should have been able to look at the facts and evidence, realized it was a frivolous waste of time and resources, and done the same damn thing.

Also, to LS - I really do think you were reckless.

Horse-hockey. He did what he needed to do to keep from being mauled or worse.

How I found this? Well, first, because I am that good. I spent some time before (and during) law school as a private investigator, and was good at that, too. I guess the short answer is that I was researching LS, using his name and background as a police officer. I used only google and open sites. (Frankly, as a municipal lawyer, I don't even have access to the cool LEO searches.) There is a site that links LS's real name and background to the moniker "Liberty Sanders." After that, it was a matter of searching for that, with various combinations of "Carmel."

I first found postings he made elsewhere that confirmed the link between his real name and "Liberty Sanders." After that, it was just a matter of reading stuff he'd written.

Nice work, Sherlock. An eighth-grader has similar investigative skills.

I for one think T.Rex was stupid for coming on here and bloviating. He got his ass handed to him by the judge, about which I am very happy, then he comes on here and tells us all about the ass beating he took.

Judge Poindexter impresses me. Liberty impresses me. T.Rex...not so much.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Sue me. Or Google me. Or something.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Jeez...this T.Rex dude is completely full of himself...and full of crap.

Bullshirt. The cop should have used a little common sense, looked at the evidence, talked to the witnesses, and gone to Dunkin Donuts.

And the prosecutor should have been able to look at the facts and evidence, realized it was a frivolous waste of time and resources, and done the same damn thing.

Horse-hockey. He did what he needed to do to keep from being mauled or worse.

Nice work, Sherlock. An eighth-grader has similar investigative skills.

I for one think T.Rex was stupid for coming on here and bloviating. He got his ass handed to him by the judge, about which I am very happy, then he comes on here and tells us all about the ass beating he took.

Judge Poindexter impresses me. Liberty impresses me. T.Rex...not so much.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Sue me. Or Google me. Or something.

rep coming your way when I recharge

 

[T.Lex]

The cop should have used a little common sense, looked at the evidence, talked to the witnesses, and gone to Dunkin Donuts.

1. It burned down a few months ago. (Seriously - it did! There's probably still news articles about it.)
2. IMNSHO he did use common sense, from a law enforcement perspective. He let the judge sort it out.

You may disagree to your heart's content.

And the prosecutor should have been able to look at the facts and evidence, realized it was a frivolous waste of time and resources, and done the same damn thing.

We did, it wasn't, and well... here we are.

Horse-hockey. He did what he needed to do to keep from being mauled or worse.

You are entitled to your opinion. I think what he needed to do was a little Mozambique Drill on the pooch. YMMV.

Nice work, Sherlock. An eighth-grader has similar investigative skills.

According to the Star (make of that what you will), there's a 6th grader or something at IUPUI debunking Einstein. I guess I'm in pretty good company.

As to the rest... well... random bits of 0s and 1s in the internet ether....

 

[Jack Ryan]

The only dogs I've owned are German Shepherds and for that reason, I wouldn't ever take them shooting with me...I want their ears crisp and ready to hear any bump in the night.

If I want a dog to take shooting with me, I'll get one with floppy ears(more than likely it would be a lab).

They are all pretty much just a useless PITA at the target range any way. The new dog I've got seems to be catching on to target practice verses something where she could actually be useful and she's taken to finding something else to do during practice shooting.

 

[dross]

I'd like everyone to consider a couple of things.

The guy has the guts to come on here and defend his position, and he's doing it civilly.

I don't agree with him either, but his position isn't crazy nuts, it's just wrong, IMO.

We can benefit from consideration of another point of view. The guy's a gun owner, he's pro self defense, he just differs on this particular set of circumstances. It also looks to me, reading between the lines, that's he's not overly passionate about his POV, but he's trying hard to be intellectually honest by saying that he agreed with the prosecution. I get the idea that if the choice to prosecute this were soley his, he might not have chosen to do it.

That said, I think the reading of the comments about the judge was a dirty trick.

Attack away, he has it coming, but I think this board can benefit from his POV, and he's clearly not some tyrannical government official.

 

[Jack Ryan]

@ Benny-
No good deed goes unpunished.

(Side note, I believe the dog owner got a citation for having his dogs loose, but paid it.)

I suspect most people in this thread have already done this, but people should look at this as learning opportunity. People should really REALLY examine what they would do in a situation like this. The little things - at what point do you pull your weapon out? At what point do you take the safety off (if your weapon has one, obviously)? At what point do you commit to the shot?

There are fine lines running along each of those decisions. And keep in mind, people across Indiana have been arrested (not just cited, as LS was) for even just showing a pistol in their waistband.

If the wrong civilian had seen LS that day, the call to the police might've been that there's some maniac shooting at friendly neighborhood dogs! (Ok, that's a bit of a stretch, but you never really know what non-gun-people will think that they see.)

The real lesson is to remember this is a country full of weasles who make it their full time job to sit in a court room monday morning quarterbacking their subjects who are just trying to earn an HONEST living 99% of the time. All they do, in fact, get paid for from the pockets of working citizens is to pick pick pick and try to find new ways to make themselves relevant.

 

[CarmelHP]

That said, I think the reading of the comments about the judge was a dirty trick.

I'm offended he didn't answer my question, even to deny he did it.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Easy fellas. You have to give him credit for showing up. Personally, I think he would be able to provide valuable insight, considering his past job, so let's not chase him off just yet...

His ego made him do it.

 

[Roadie]

I'd like everyone to consider a couple of things.

The guy has the guts to come on here and defend his position, and he's doing it civilly.

I don't agree with him either, but his position isn't crazy nuts, it's just wrong, IMO.

We can benefit from consideration of another point of view. The guy's a gun owner, he's pro self defense, he just differs on this particular set of circumstances. It also looks to me, reading between the lines, that's he's not overly passionate about his POV, but he's trying hard to be intellectually honest by saying that he agreed with the prosecution. I get the idea that if the choice to prosecute this were soley his, he might not have chosen to do it.

That said, I think the reading of the comments about the judge was a dirty trick.

Attack away, he has it coming, but I think this board can benefit from his POV, and he's clearly not some tyrannical government official.

Agreed. To keep coming back even after everything that has been thrown at him shows some integrity.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Easy fellas. You have to give him credit for showing up. Personally, I think he would be able to provide valuable insight, considering his past job, so let's not chase him off just yet...

He (insert sleazy weasel words here) appears to me to be exactly the kind of sleazy government weasel who should be ostracized by honest working citizens.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Jeez...this T.Rex dude is completely full of himself...and full of crap.

Bullshirt. The cop should have used a little common sense, looked at the evidence, talked to the witnesses, and gone to Dunkin Donuts.

And the prosecutor should have been able to look at the facts and evidence, realized it was a frivolous waste of time and resources, and done the same damn thing.

Horse-hockey. He did what he needed to do to keep from being mauled or worse.

Nice work, Sherlock. An eighth-grader has similar investigative skills.

I for one think T.Rex was stupid for coming on here and bloviating. He got his ass handed to him by the judge, about which I am very happy, then he comes on here and tells us all about the ass beating he took.

Judge Poindexter impresses me. Liberty impresses me. T.Rex...not so much.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Sue me. Or Google me. Or something.