Army National Guard Recruiting FEMA Camp Or "Internment/Resettlement" Specialists

[SavageEagle]

Dood, put down the beer and re-read this thread. Especially my and your posts.

You just said that because gangbangers were shooting at helicopters, it's ok to disarm innocent people. That is seriously messed up. And just because someone made a law in the last 100 years, doesn't mean it's Constitutional or Moral. So if the government made a law that said it's ok for Soldiers to shoot innocent people who wear red shirts, you'd follow that order?

Of course you would. It would make it a "Legal Order" in your eyes.

Excuse me while I go

 

[techres]

Personally SE yes I think it is very WRONG!

However what I will not do is chastise the Military for doing what was LEGALLY permitted by the LAWS of the State we were in. You want to change what happened then ELECT different officials and CHANGE the LAWS! QUIT soapboxing innocent Soldiers when it was not their doing.

Would you rather the Military have defended ourselves during the evacs and supply convoys in and out of the City?

I will not arm chair this decision.

Jeremy, I know this has been a chuckle for you and the other soldiers in this thread. And I have zero interest in adding to the humor but I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

Do you see disarmament as a necessary tool for force protection?
Would you have a preference for general disarmament over self-protection engagement freedom?
Where do you see the break point for an order to disarm going over a legal limit under martial law or is there one?
Does the federal law passed under Bush help to clarify, or is it moot?
Finally, do you see isolated criminal instances as creating a general rule that can be applied to all citizens and is that only under martial law?

I understand your frustration with SE's comments, he is not known for tact. At the same time he is getting at a fissure point that does exist and while we are here, I would love to learn from it.

And as for the illegal order issue, as I remember it, the onus is on each and every soldier to determine what that point is to the best of their ability. And if they don't, the responsibility for following and illegal order is also upon their head. That being said, IIRC there is/was one class on that in basic and I don't know if more is done in AIT or OJT. It puts a soldier in a very awkward bind.

You have taken an oath and mean it to your core. And yet we put you in circumstances where that oath is tested beyond what we as citizens do not have to go because you went for us. Thank you for that, and thank you for holding your oath as far more than just words recited after your physical.

Now help me understand the implementation of that oath.

 

[SavageEagle]

Yes, I have a hard time being civil when my patience is tested. I'm sorry I get frustrated and thank you tech for putting it in a more civil, clear way.

 

[jeremy]

You sound like this guy being described by WWIIIDefender in a related thread.

Jeremy, I know this has been a chuckle for you and the other soldiers in this thread. And I have zero interest in adding to the humor but I would like to ask you a couple of questions.
This thread has been a chuckle... You jest...

Do you see disarmament as a necessary tool for force protection? Possibly, would you rather have dead in the streets...
Would you have a preference for general disarmament over self-protection engagement freedom? I would rather disarm than kill Americans...
Where do you see the break point for an order to disarm going over a legal limit under martial law or is there one? Constitutionally, Martial Law is allowed. The powers granted by it are broad...
Does the federal law passed under Bush help to clarify, or is it moot? Moot...
Finally, do you see isolated criminal instances as creating a general rule that can be applied to all citizens and is that only under martial law? ONLY under Martial Law...

I understand your frustration with SE's comments, he is not known for tact. At the same time he is getting at a fissure point that does exist and while we are here, I would love to learn from it.

And as for the illegal order issue, as I remember it, the onus is on each and every soldier to determine what that point is to the best of their ability. And if they don't, the responsibility for following and illegal order is also upon their head. That being said, IIRC there is/was one class on that in basic and I don't know if more is done in AIT or OJT. It puts a soldier in a very awkward bind.
Soldiers are trained though most of their careers on what a legal order is and is not. And your actually have a pretty good understanding.

You have taken an oath and mean it to your core. And yet we put you in circumstances where that oath is tested beyond what we as citizens do not have to go because you went for us. Thank you for that, and thank you for holding your oath as far more than just words recited after your physical.

Now help me understand the implementation of that oath.

I'll be in Bloomington next week we can grab a beer and figure it out.

 

[SavageEagle]

If you can make it next weekend I'll buy you both the first round.

 

[MoparMan]

Many of my friends that were in LA, and TX during the hurricanes did not/or know of soldiers disarming citizens. They were to provide security. Most of the disarming was the thugs running around looting and shooting at them. The news always has to pain a worse picture on everything. Why is it their goal to make the military, police, or whoever look like .

Its easy for you or I to sit back and say, they should have done this, but they were in the middle of a hostile situation and not you or I so lets applaud them for what they did and not letting it turn into a Kent State.

And yes if i was there in that situation and was ordered to help the police confiscate weaopns i would have done so. If soldiers cant follow orders then they might as work at Walmart.

 

[jeremy]

It is all situational...

At that time the choices by the Laws in place in La and NO were disarm or shoot... Can you imagine what the media would have done to soldiers that would have shot...

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok, let me explain what I'm having a hard time grasping a hold of.

You say that it's great these soldiers in NO confiscated guns from innocent Americans only trying to defend themselves against the SAME people who were shooting at the military/LEOs. You say that because it resembled a war zone, and that Martial Law was declared, it makes it ok to disarm EVERYONE. The only problem is that Martial Law doesn't give anyone the power to disarm all people. Would it really have been so hard to just place troops on the ground and detain anyone using their firearms for anything other than self-defense? If they shoot at you blow that mfer away! They deserved it!

But those who were in their homes protecting the last of what they owned, those people did not deserve to have their protection taken away. Those very people taking the guns did not stick around to man the streets and protect those they disarmed.

And again, Martial Law doesn't mean that you can just violate people's God Given Rights willy nilly because you feel threatened. If that was the case, Martial Law would be in effect RIGHT NOW because all the politicians feel threatened when they come home from DC and they would be taking YOUR guns because the government has classified US as domestic low-level terrorists.

So you see, the disarming of the people devistated by Katrina was completely unConsitutional except for those who meant to do others harm. But to go door to door and take EVERYONE's guns was completely wrong and anyone saying it was ok is saying that it's ok for the government to take our guns NOW because of the current state of the Country.

We are on the verge of complete economic collapse and there is a serious rise in crime rates. Applying what happened during Katrina, that would mean declaring a state of emergency and allowing our military to go door to door across America and take our guns.

It sounds like a stretch, but if you think about it, is it really? IMHO, no it is not.

 

[SavageEagle]

It is all situational...

At that time the choices by the Laws in place in La and NO were disarm or shoot... Can you imagine what the media would have done to soldiers that would have shot...

If they would have shot gangbangers shooting at the soldiers, I think the media would have applauded. I know I would have. Even if it got distorted at first, it would have been cleared up eventually and medals given I'm sure.

 

[MoparMan]

SE,
It's hard for me to say this but i agree with you in some aspects.

It would have been better to not go door to door taking peoples weapons, if that even happened. I never believe the news. I know people from all the Indiana Units and Kentucky Units that were there and they only help disarmed the thughs in the street rioting.

I know more stuff then thats in the news and we as a country are a ways away from declaring any sort of national martial law. But if it did occur and me as a NCO would expect my soldiers to follow orders.

 

[techres]

I know more stuff then thats in the news and we as a country are a ways away from declaring any sort of national martial law. But if it did occur and me as a NCO would expect my soldiers to follow orders.

May we never get there, and each of us work hard to make sure it never happens.

Amen.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
I was not there, at least for the confiscations. However, that decision was made by the Governor of the fine State of Louisiana. The Governor was fully within his States Laws to do what was done at the time it was done. snip

That is not true. The courts have held that the confiscations were illegal. The Governor, the police, the mayor, the soldiers were ALL wrong, and they knowingly and deliberately violated the Constitution.

Sorry about the violence. The soldiers and police should have had the courage to go after those committing violent acts instead of grandmothers and Americans trying to protect their homes and families.

Instead, they went down a path far to many tyrannies have before, and have found ways to rationalize their choice to violate their oaths.

 

[Joe Williams]

And yes if i was there in that situation and was ordered to help the police confiscate weaopns i would have done so. If soldiers cant follow orders then they might as work at Walmart.

Any soldier with so little respect for the Constitution, so little integrity for their own oath that they are willing to behave illegally, isn't even fit for the Wal-Mart job. They cannot be trusted, they are no less an enemy of this nation than any Al Queda operative.

 

[SavageEagle]

SE,
It's hard for me to say this but i agree with you in some aspects.

It would have been better to not go door to door taking peoples weapons, if that even happened. I never believe the news. I know people from all the Indiana Units and Kentucky Units that were there and they only help disarmed the thughs in the street rioting.

I know more stuff then thats in the news and we as a country are a ways away from declaring any sort of national martial law. But if it did occur and me as a NCO would expect my soldiers to follow orders.

I just went off of the video's I seen of the NG escorting the PD door to door and watching them disarm people with rowboats trying to get home or out of the city. I didn't go off of what the news showed.

I don't think National Martial Law is upon us either, but you get my point and I appreciate that.

May we never get there, and each of us work hard to make sure it never happens.

Amen.

Amen brother. Amen.



_______________

{rant}

I will say that what made me so mad about the whole debacle is how they treated gun owners after the fact. Throwing their guns in rubber tubs and trashcans and burn barrels only to let them rust and break and not reimburse the owners when they came to collect the trash that was once their family heirlooms. This is where the courts and the NRA failed gun owners and is unforgiveable. But that's for another thread altogether.


{/rant}

 

[MoparMan]

Joe you have treaded pretty close to the line and continue to do so. There are many military on this site that would stand for you calling us Al Queda. Join the military and run it the way you want. Run for office and ensure the constitution is enforced. Oh thats right you wont, you'll just type away on the internet about what you think is right.

 

[MoparMan]

I will say that what made me so made about the whole debacle is how they treated gun owners after the fact. Throwing their guns in rubber tubs and trashcans and burn barrels only to let them rust and break and not reimburse the owners when they came to collect the trash that was once their family heirlooms. This is where the courts and the NRA failed gun owners and is unforgiveable. But that's for another thread altogether.


{/rant}

I did not see this or hear of it. That I definately would not stand for. If there was a section of town that had looters and anarchists shooting at us and we had to go door to door to secure the area, I could see confiscating those guns. Not going to an area that has no looting or violence and taking those individuals guns.

 

[Joe Williams]

Joe you have treaded pretty close to the line and continue to do so. There are many military on this site that would stand for you calling us Al Queda. Join the military and run it the way you want. Run for office and ensure the constitution is enforced. Oh thats right you wont, you'll just type away on the internet about what you think is right.

I am unsurprised that you would resort to threats to silence those you disagree with. Those who think they have the right to violate the Constitution and disarm American citizens certainly have no respect for the other parts of that document either.

Your problem is I've served also, unlike some, though, I MEANT my oath. So much for your "won't."

 

[MoparMan]

Before i say something that is against the rules i will refrain and let the other military members you've insulted to engage you.

 

[SavageEagle]

I did not see this or hear of it. That I definately would not stand for. If there was a section of town that had looters and anarchists shooting at us and we had to go door to door to secure the area, I could see confiscating those guns. Not going to an area that has no looting or violence and taking those individuals guns.

Let me find the video. It shows the guns all rusty and broken in a container ship type container and the NRA going through them cataloging them. It'll make you cry for sure. I know I did.

 

[Joe Williams]

Before i say something that is against the rules i will refrain and let the other military members you've insulted to engage you.

What makes you think you speak for THEM? Most of the ones I knew took their oaths seriously, and do NOT agree with you in the slightest. I hope times haven't changed that much, but evidence says they may have. If your views represent the majority of today's soldiers, our Constitution is bereft of protection.