2ADMNLOVER
Grandmaster
EXACTLY ! I think far TOO MANY parents buy into the idea of being their child's' friend than being their parent .
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Arkansas Police Use Taser on 10-Year-Old Girl
- Thread starter BloodEclipse
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EXACTLY ! I think far TOO MANY parents buy into the idea of being their child's' friend than being their parent .
Clearly I'm not mentally tough enough to be a cop, as I wouldn't have been able to bring myself to tase a little girl.
Of all the arguments I hear from public servants in general, this is the one I hate the most - that somehow a citizen who works productively in the private sector, which funds the jobs of public servants, doesn't have a say unless they remove themselves from the part of society that pays for everything, and joins the part of society that we pay to perform a function for us.
Good thing she wasn't also refusing to eat her vegetables - she might have been charged with a RICO violation.
IMO, this entire incident is ridiculous and appalling. You have a "mother" who has done such a pee-poor job of raising her kid that at age 10 she cannot handle the kid having a temper tantrum. I personally am not aware of ANY 10 year old who hasn't had at least a tantrum or two; its what kids do until they are firmly shown their boundaries.
This excuse for a parent decides that the POLICE are needed to get he kid into the shower and into bed. Dad can't help because mom and dad can't get along and so are divorced.
Cop shows up, and instead of telling Mom to grow up and start acting like a mother, he get the bright idea of CARRYING THE KID INTO THE SHOWER. Am I the only one who really thinks this was a stupid idea? At that point, the kid is throwing a tantrum, not committing a crime. IT IS THE PARENTS PROBLEM, NOT THE POLICE'S AND BY EXTENSION THE TAXPAYER'S. JUST WHO IS GOING TO FOOT THE BILL WHEN DAD SUES; THE TAXPAYERS.
So the kid is kicking and screaming and tags him in the groin. So he tases her? I'm sorry, but having been drive stunned myself I just cannot see how this is appropriate. It sounds to me like the cop lost his temper a bit at getting hit in the junk and went way overboard. I don't give a flying poo if Mom said it was ok, there is just no way I see this being legit.
Check out the picture of the girl:
Cop Tases 10-Year-Old Girl - November 18, 2009
IMO, this whole thing is just one huge reflection of the degeneracy of our society. Parents won't parent and so the state ends up stepping in. Anyone how has ever had anything to do with the state's orphanages/foster care/chins system knows that the state is a pee poor replacement for parents. The alleged 12 year old foster child/molester who was on the 6 year old female foster child whose mom is dead and dad is in prison that I had to deal with recently highlighted that.
Joe
I'd rep this, but it says I've been rep-happy.
You're not the only one that thinks carrying the kid to the bathroom was a bad idea. Certainly can't speak for the whole board on this though...
Look at this little terror. lol
BloodEclipse
Grandmaster
Look at this little terror. lol
Yep a real devil child there. I was expecting something more like this:
I just had a thought - if it was okay for the cop to tase the girl, it would be okay for the mother to do it before the cop arrived, right? I'm sure she wouldn't get in any trouble with another government agency.
My three year old threw a tantrum last night. I've never purchased a taser - anyone have any recommendations?
My three year old threw a tantrum last night. I've never purchased a taser - anyone have any recommendations?
theweakerbrother
Grandmaster
From a parent, child abuse. From a (bad) police officer, civil and public service!
A three year old with a tantrum? Nuke from above, dude. Nuke from above!
CulpeperMM
Master
)
I briefly worked at a juvenile facility. We had a kid that was maybe 90 pounds soaking wet. One night he decided that he wasn't ready to go to bed, threw himself down, and started screaming that we couldn't make him. One of the officers picked him up and started leading him to the "time out" room. The kid decided to try to get away by running up the wall while the officer still had some control on him. As he was running up the wall, he was twisting his body, which caused the officer to lose his hold on the kid. This caused the kid to experience gravity, and he came straight down on his face, losing three teeth.
My twelve year old nephew decided one night to show his rear end. His father is dead and his mother is left with a child that his father could barely control. Parental problems? She will loudly admit it, but it doesn't change the fact that he is now too big for her to control so she called the police. The police enter and my nephew decides that he is going to take on the whole police force and proudly lets them know that. Five seconds later (and however many volts) he has decided that he is willing to do whatever they want as long as they don't tase him again. He calmly let them put him in handcuffs and quietly got in the police car.
So which outcome was better?
I will not argue that parenting is the root cause of the problems, 99% of the kids at the juvenile facility were there because their parents had never disciplined them.
My twelve year old nephew decided one night to show his rear end. His father is dead and his mother is left with a child that his father could barely control. Parental problems? She will loudly admit it, but it doesn't change the fact that he is now too big for her to control so she called the police. The police enter and my nephew decides that he is going to take on the whole police force and proudly lets them know that. Five seconds later (and however many volts) he has decided that he is willing to do whatever they want as long as they don't tase him again. He calmly let them put him in handcuffs and quietly got in the police car.
So which outcome was better?
I will not argue that parenting is the root cause of the problems, 99% of the kids at the juvenile facility were there because their parents had never disciplined them.
So my five-year old daughter bit me last night*, should I then have called the cops and had her charged and hauled away to the pokey?
Battery on LE maybe, but then that almost certainly wouldn't have happened had the officer simply said "Hey, lady, it's not my job to discipline your children" and not approached within "kicking distance" of the child throwing a tantrum on the floor.
* No, I am not going to discuss how I dealt with it with strangers in a public forum.
If you tased her, you can admit it. We're all friends here. We'd just assume that you made the better choice over getting some other parents together and beating her with nighsticks.
Any answer would be a "no win". If I say I spanked her, some would scream about child abuse. If I say I just gave her a time out, some would say I wasn't firm enough. And, like as not, a few would be the same in the "somes" in either case.
You've seen those tests where there are "no wrong answers"? Well, this is one with no right answers.
public servant
Grandmaster
Give me a moment and let me scroll back and see if I endorsed calling the cops because parents can't control their brat.... *looking, looking, looking* Nope...not me.
I believe BE asked what she may have done to get hauled off to jail. I answered. My personal belief is the parent should have busted the little heathen's *** and dragged her to the shower. But that's just me.
*How you disciplined your kid is none of my business...unless you abuse them. Lighting their *** up when they misbehave is not abuse. IMO.
Didn't say you did.
This is what I was addressing. The idea that a kid throwing a
, even if parent/guardian is struck/kicked/bit/whatever is cause for a kid getting hauled off to jail is, IMO, absurd. Perhaps the letter of the law permits that but if so, well, Mr. Bumble's line from Oliver Twist would seem to apply.My personal belief is that it should never have gotten that far in the first place, but if the parent had screwed up enough to let it get that far, then yep.
Fair enough. Not everybody takes that view however and so there are simply things I don't talk about in public. If someone on one side doesn't raise a fuss, someone on the other side probably will.
Disposable Heart
Grandmaster
A story of bad parenting. It sucked it had to escalate to an officer even showing up to the event. When the parent has to call an outside power to parent, they have lost the "game" of parenting, capitulating to the kid. That kid is now going to not fear anything authoritative and probably end up a hoodlum, not only through past prison time, but also due to lack of respect for anything law, and subjectively, parents.
The Taser thing, IMHO, was a bit out of reach however. You don't Taser kids, that is what ASPs are for...
The Taser thing, IMHO, was a bit out of reach however. You don't Taser kids, that is what ASPs are for...
It's just one case out of millions that are handled every day. We are here discussing this case with this officer. Other LEO personnel need not fear the criticism going on here. We do the same to politicians, CEOs, Doctors, and other professions that we come in direct contact with.
I'm not bashing, I'm giving my opinion about this instance ONLY.
Well, here is the issue as I see it: While folks may be commenting on this one instance only, this is one of many that constantly get posted not only on this board, but many others that I am a member of. It is a constant stream of bad cops postings, sprinkled in with a few good cop stories. Yet the complaints are always the same, no one ever seems to want to be more pro-active about changing what is wrong. Not only that, if you read a lot of the bad cop story postings, there is a common theme that comes up, not from everyone, but at least from some. That theme is that a huge hunk of law enforcement, be it 10% or 50% or whatever, is "bad" and the cops are acting horribly. Well, again, sitting around on here spouting "This is wrong!" won't change anything, ever.
Point out to me in my post where I said no one can criticize the cops? What I did mostly was post questions, trying to gauge how some folks are trying to make a positive change. If I complain on here about where my taxes are going, where this country is headed, etc....then I posted that I have never voted, I would slammed, and rightfully so. Yet even though I don't vote, could I use your argument about paying and get a pass? No. Just because you pay doesn't mean you are doing enough. I believe it does give you a right to complain, but it also gives some people who are the receivers of that complaint the right to ask questions about you, what are you doing to change things, to help.
Imagine if everyone on this board did nothing but paid taxes. We never voted, never e-mailed our elected officials, never showed up at their meetings, never donated money politically, never did anything but complained on INGO. Now if we took our complaints to a few people outside of INGO...they would laugh at us. They would obviously say we need to do more to get involved. Look at the health care bill. That thing would have been rubber stamped months ago had it not been for the town hall meetings and people upset with the direction of this country. Had all those people stayed home, did nothing but complained to family/friends/message boards, it likely would have passed sooner, and be even worse than it is now. Sometimes, change takes more than money. Paying your fair share gives you the right to complain, but so what? Is that really going to bring about any sort of change?
If things in LE are that bad as some here post, then they will likely only get worse (to these individuals). Unless good folks start volunteering to help out by working as an unpaid reserve, applying for LEO jobs, and/or raising their kids right and supporting/suggesting they look at careers in LE, not much is going to change. I have worked with younger officers. One was under the impression handguns had to be concealed while carried with a permit. Now I could have sat there, and said nothing and ignored it, but then he could have went out, illegally arrested someone, then I, along with everyone else, could have complained about how stupid that cop was, that we all pay taxes and they had better _change_. Of course I didn't do that, I wanted to make a positive change for the benefit of all, so I cleared up the law with this officer.
I don't know much about this case, but it wouldn't surprise if the officer was totally in the wrong. If the officer really carried the girl to the shower, that isn't right in my book. Again, it goes back to how much you are willing to pay/do to get _quality_ and _educated_ folks. Look, this is tiny town Arkansas...they likely don't pay squat. The nearest big city is Fort Smith and their starting pay is $34,507.20 and Ft. Smith pop. is around 80K. Most cities that big in Indiana pay more than that, those that don't, lose good officers to those that do. They don't lose them all, but enough. Yea, all departments have issues, but when you have one or two issues with IMPD, with 1,300 officers, look at the relation to this department which appears to have maybe 10. Maybe it is that cheap to live in Arkansas, who knows. I know that the whole "family thing" with law enforcement is changing. As larger cities continue to grow, the police pay more and more in some areas. More people are willing to move to where the benefits and money are good (not the best, just good). You combine all this together, throw in instant and worldwide media reporting, and we are going to have enough "bad cop" stories for the next 1,000 years.
I have always been told that you get what you pay for. We preach it here constantly with junk guns and such. Well, same goes for LE. A municipality will get what it pays for. If you pay a high school GED/diploma wage, you will get someone with those credentials. Others with more smarts/logic, they will either take a pass and never apply, or get training and the academy and move on. If a small, not so good paying department is lucky, they get to keep their good officers. Again, you get what you pay for...and a lower costs of living doesn't mean the cops should be paid less. If you pay min. wage, or close to it, don't expect to get a ton of applicants who can think logically, quickly, etc.. That might have been true in the past, but that isn't the case anymore.
I am someone who has been hard on some LEOs on this site. I don't have a percentage of how many I think are "bad" and I don't think LEOs are bad people in general. My issue is with freedom from oppression.
Oppression can come in a variety of ways. One way that we discuss often on this site is when a bad law, like the AWB is passed. The healthcare bill is another example of legislative oppression.
Another kind of oppression can occur when the police abuse their authority. The police are the part of the government that enforces the laws the legislature passes. I don't hold the police responsible for enforcing bad laws, but I hold them responsible for overstepping the immense authority we give them.
I have several stories of which I have personal knowledge of LEOs overstepping. I could provide several stories of them not overstepping as well, but those don't make very interesting posts. It's not exceptional when a cop stops a citizen, treats them professionally and then sends them on their way. That's what we pay them to do.
In the context of kids, even "bad" kids are probably good most of the time. I'm sure even "bad" police forces are good most of the time. That doesn't excuse them from criticism when they are not.
Your implication was clearly that we who were criticizing had lost some kind of moral authority because we were just criticizing. And yes, "just paying" gets you a pass to criticize all you want, and I won't slam you. You originally offered a defense for this officer and for the possibilities of the situation, then you offered an argument against person for those of us who were criticizing. Our backgrounds are irrelevant to the facts of this case. My point is that as a citizen, I have standing to criticize, so let's move off of my contributions (which you have no knowledge of) and assume that my being a taxpayer gives me standing, and continue with the discussion about the incident.
Again, no one has to apologize or further explain anything beyond what they write here on this board. You might be talking to a person who has devoted their life to activism, or one who has never even paid their taxes. Not relevant to this discussion. This is a discussion board. We're discussing. It's a distraction from the discussion to try to cast a detrimental light on those who disagree with you as spinning their wheels uselessly, because we're here discussing on a discussion board.
I don't have to be an unpaid reserve officer. I just have vote for a different mayor, if I don't like the way his police force behaves. Or, I could write the mayor and tell him why I'm not voting for him. Or, I could donate money to his opponent's campaign. Or, I could organize a protest. Or, I could just post my opinion on a discussion board with hundreds or thousands of readers. None of these gives me any more moral authority than I had before. I was born here, I'm a citizen, my public servants answer to me and my fellows, collectively. Again, this is all smokescreen to cover the fact that you and other LEOs defend each other even for indefensible actions like tasing a little girl. When pressed, you change the subject and imply that the people arguing against your position in this discussion forum should be doing something else rather than replying to the points you posted.
So, finally you admit the possibility that the cop might have been wrong. Followed quickly by an argument that it was probably caused by the taxpayers not paying enough.
Whether he was paid 100k a year, or minimum wage doesn't change what was right or wrong one tiny little bit.
As to getting what you pay for, another discussion entirely. Suffice to say that I don't automatically agree with your premeses. Soldiers make substantially less than cops, and I haven't heard it argued that their pay affects the quality of their work.
In the largest town near me, the median police pay is 60% more than the median income of the citizenry. Isn't that enough to expect pretty darn good behavior?
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