AR side sights?

[Aaron1776]

Take this for what it's worth, but this statement is the most sheep minded thing I've read in this entire thread. While I personally don't need sights to engage close in targets, some might feel more comfortable with them.
"It Could never happen here."

Now we have found our true mall ninja.
That wasn't a "it couldn't happen here" quote, that was a "even if it did happen here you're better served with something else"
See below.

Kinda what I was thinking. To think we can't experience civil unrest or worse in this country is naive.

Even in the case of unrest, the likelihood of you using your precision AR at range and then up close is quite unlikely, and there are rifle set ups that better suit your mission in that situation. You're going to kill people 2-300 yards down the street who aren't attacking YOUR property in Bloomington IN? Really? How is that going to play out for you later? Unless we suddenly run into "Mad Max" style anarchy with no governmental consequences for your actions, that is going to bite you in the butt afterwards.

Then suddenly in that same senario you're going to have to snap shoot some occupy wall street ninjas at your door?
Why weren't you focused on the people right in front you on your own property? And why aren't you using a rifle set up for CQB at that point? And why arent you skilled enough to make 200 yard hits with an AR with a simple CQB red dot set up or just iron sights?
Simply stated, an AR with a red dot cowittnessed with iron sights (in case the red dot goes down) will be more than adequate for any situation you are ever going to get into.
Or are yoing going to be apart of a roving post-apocalyptic justice squad?

Please.

You guys can do your survivalist/mall ninja self-congratulation circle to make yourselves feel better for wasting money on angled side sights, but stop pretending that this is somehow going to make you safer in your own life.

Cost of those diamond side sights :300$
Cost of FoF training at Mindset in Indy: 225$

At the end of the day you've wasted more money on something that you're not going to realistically use when you could have spent LESS money on training that would greatly improve your chances of survival in both a street encounter or a messy civil unrest style break down.

Sorry guys, as cool as it would be, Mad Max simply isn't going to be a reality. An Argentine style break down with civil unrest? Well that's pretty much just gauranteed at this point...unless we just get really lucky and make a 180 on our spending tomorrow. But again that 300$ could be put to use for food, ammo, training, almost another gun, a scope for your bolt action....the list goes on.

Again, all your opinion.

Asking for a specific serious situation, is akin to asking why carry a gun at all. I can spin up some BS situations that would require a Barret .50bmg for the best tool for the job. Murphys law and all that!

The difference here is that I can list very realistic senarios for why you would need a gun to defend yourself here in IN. I've even personally had to employ a firearm to do so. Even in an unrest senario, angled sights for a .50 cal barret isn't going to do you a lot of good.

I see you are not fond of the gaming community, and must ask what specific reason why? As well as what aspect of it that you feel is "crap". I know you will throw the whole tactics card at this, you know, "this will get you killed" stuff, but what else? If good tactics are used, why would fast, accurate and skillful gun handling be bad?

You misunderstand. I have nothing against the gaming community. I think it's fun! I just shake my head when "gamers" attempt to apply things that either aren't tactically viable or add expensive stuff onto their guns and then think they're suddenly better prepared for real life. Especially when you could be spending that money on training which will help you both in "gaming" situations AND in real life.

Gaming gear is fine. Don't let it posion your self-defense mindset. Tactical guns should be SIMPLE and optimized for their mission.

Please, Aaron1776, don't be mistaken by my comments, I am a fellow that likes to keep things simple as well. But, I am open minded when it comes to gun gear, as I have learned in the past that simply dismissing a product because it doesn't fit my dogma doesn't mean it has no use for others, especially some one who has seen them, and is curious as to the use, from folks that have actually used such a product.

No worries. I totally understand. I'm a guy who makes people question their set up and tries to get them away from a "gaming" mindset when it comes to "serious" use. If you want a gaming gun to reinact Call of Duty matches on the range, great. Just differientate between your "fun guns" and your "serious" guns. There are a lot of people on INGO with a "gear first" mindset. They need a reality/training mindset when it comes to serious use.

That said, I am sorry I am unable to use the multi-quote feature as well as I should. I am too busy loading ammo for tomorrows USPSA match and doing some dry fire drills, also doing some tune up work on my HD suppressed SBR, it needed some love.

Cheers!

Thanks for the polite and reasoned conversation. Have fun!!!

 

[LD36]

Once again you reply with sarcasm and you need to exaggerate our points in order to rebut us. You also make untrue assumptions about my skills with a rifle. I can and have engaged targets at 250 yards with nothing but an EOTech and had no problem hitting my mark... this isn't my only rifle. I never once stated anything about 2-300 yard shots. That’s your yardage that you came up with to make your points. My discussed rifle is set up for shots FAR beyond that range. And how did civil unrest become a “MAD MAX” post-apocalyptic scenario? Also, I WORK in Bloomington, I don’t live there. I’m not sure why you feel the need to make assumptions and argue everyone’s opinions with yours. Sure, you can give your points of view and we want to get other perspectives, but you don’t need to tell everyone they are wrong and throw out your own derogatory label of “mall ninja” to everyone who sets their rifle up differently than yours.

 

[Aaron1776]

Once again you reply with sarcasm and you need to exaggerate our points in order to rebut us.

No exaggeration needed. I was simply bringing out your logic to its conclusion. You said it was for comabt. My friend and I asked when you'll ever realistically be in that senario. Civil unrest was mentioned. I followed that out to its logical end...... and the reust is that we're still waiting on that senario where those side sights will come into use beyond 3 gun.

You also make untrue assumptions about my skills with a rifle. I can and have engaged targets at 250 yards with nothing but an EOTech and had no problem hitting my mark... this isn't my only rifle. I never once stated anything about 2-300 yard shots. That’s your yardage that you came up with to make your points. My discussed rifle is set up for shots FAR beyond that range.

Hold your horses there cowboy. That was the theoretical/plural "you" not you LD36. I'm sure you're quite skilled with your AR. The point of that comment was really trying to make you think when you're really ever going to use a precision AR for anything other than pleasure shooting.

And how did civil unrest become a “MAD MAX” post-apocalyptic scenario?

You guys brought up civil unrest in your justification. I played that out to its logical end and found that you're still not going to find a use outside of 3 gun....unless it turns into Mad Max.

Also, I WORK in Bloomington, I don’t live there. I’m not sure why you feel the need to make assumptions and argue everyone’s opinions with yours. Sure, you can give your points of view and we want to get other perspectives, but you don’t need to tell everyone they are wrong and throw out your own derogatory label of “mall ninja” to everyone who sets their rifle up differently than yours.

Where the unrest takes place is irelevant

Secondly, if we're gonna get technical about who is arguing, I stated my opinion about side sights, and YOU responded by arguing with it. I then picked apart your logic. At which point you said agree to disagree. I agreed. Then you jumped back in when someone else engaged ME. So I'm gonna go ahead and call BS on your indignation.

You're taking yourself and this discussion too seriously. Have you seen my signature line? I even refer to myself as a master mall ninja.
The point of internet forums is to discuss and debate these things......kinda why we're all here.

Don't be mad just cuz you realized your "serious" rifle set up is actually a 3-gun rifle.

But in all seriousness, I'm trying to get people to differientiate between "fun" guns and serious guns, and to get into a less gear focused mindset for the serious side of guns. They save a lot of time and precious resources and generally become better skilled that way. I.e not tossing 300$ into something they won't use and using it for training instead.

I'm honestly not trying to insult you. Poke a little fun to make my point? Sure. But this is an internet gun forum. We all come here to do this.

 

[LD36]

So the logical end to civil unrest is complete government collapse with total anarchy? Sounds like someone doesn't have much faith in their government. Well, I don't either so I guess that IS logical.

The primary reason I have BUIS on the rifle, which happen to be angled sights, is for back-up. Like I had said earlier, optics and scopes fail/break. One should have something to fall back on. My scope is a 2.5-10 power scope (hardly a sniper scope), but it is capable of long distance shots as well as close encounters (should they happen) with the 2.5 magnification or the angled irons. My scope mount is not a quick-detach, so to have standard irons would be useless. My only other option is to use the angled sights... or am I missing something?

How likely am I to HAVE to use the angled sights in a close encounter with the rifle? I don't know.. I HOPE I NEVER have to be in that situation. Can we absolutely know for a fact that we will never be in that position? NOPE! So I train for the unexpected. The rifle has a scope, angled sights and a sling. No lights, no lasers, no vertical grip (though I might put on an angled foregrip at a later date), no bipod, no fancy muzzle break... nothing. Just the essentials. I don’t think that’s money wasted.

I try to be prepared for any situation with whatever tools I have in my possession. I use them, I train with them, I want them to be ready. Whether the threats are from criminals, terrorists, post-apocalyptic looters or zombies , I want to give my family and I the best chance possible. Should I find myself in a survival situation and the only rifle I had was the one with the scope, I need to be able to engage threats/targets at a close range (including hunting). Hopefully this can clear things up on my end.

Stay safe everyone and happy Memorial Day to all!

 

[MikeDVB]

Too much logic!

::head explodes::

 

[tradertator]

Have you seen my signature line? I even refer to myself as a master mall ninja.
The point of internet forums is to discuss and debate these things......kinda why we're all here.

Maybe you should change it to this instead:
. Different strokes for different folks. It's his money, his rifle, and his ass on the line if he ever has to use it defensively.
I don't see a problem with someone wanting access to iron sights if they are using a magnified optic. I also don't blame you if you subscribe to the K.I.S.S. mentality. The BU in BUIS stands for back up, not primary. Optics can fog, crack, crosshairs can fall down, etc...... No, aiming the rifle while holding it at 45 degree angle is not optimum. But with fixed scope rings, you don't have many options and its always nice to have a plan B when Murphy's Law is in effect.

 

[Aaron1776]

Too much logic!

::head explodes::

So the logical end to civil unrest is complete government collapse with total anarchy? Sounds like someone doesn't have much faith in their government. Well, I don't either so I guess that IS logical.

The primary reason I have BUIS on the rifle, which happen to be angled sights, is for back-up. Like I had said earlier, optics and scopes fail/break. One should have something to fall back on. My scope is a 2.5-10 power scope (hardly a sniper scope), but it is capable of long distance shots as well as close encounters (should they happen) with the 2.5 magnification or the angled irons. My scope mount is not a quick-detach, so to have standard irons would be useless. My only other option is to use the angled sights... or am I missing something?

How likely am I to HAVE to use the angled sights in a close encounter with the rifle? I don't know.. I HOPE I NEVER have to be in that situation. Can we absolutely know for a fact that we will never be in that position? NOPE! So I train for the unexpected. The rifle has a scope, angled sights and a sling. No lights, no lasers, no vertical grip (though I might put on an angled foregrip at a later date), no bipod, no fancy muzzle break... nothing. Just the essentials. I don’t think that’s money wasted.

I try to be prepared for any situation with whatever tools I have in my possession. I use them, I train with them, I want them to be ready. Whether the threats are from criminals, terrorists, post-apocalyptic looters or zombies , I want to give my family and I the best chance possible. Should I find myself in a survival situation and the only rifle I had was the one with the scope, I need to be able to engage threats/targets at a close range (including hunting). Hopefully this can clear things up on my end.

Stay safe everyone and happy Memorial Day to all!

Haha saying that the logical conclusion is anarchy wasn't quite what I was saying, more of a worst case senario deal. But no, I have zero faith in my government. Anyone who does have faith isn't paying attention. lol

We'll agree to disagree. We just have different philosophies. Hope your Memorial day was a good one!

Maybe you should change it to this instead:
. Different strokes for different folks. It's his money, his rifle, and his ass on the line if he ever has to use it defensively.
I don't see a problem with someone wanting access to iron sights if they are using a magnified optic. I also don't blame you if you subscribe to the K.I.S.S. mentality. The BU in BUIS stands for back up, not primary. Optics can fog, crack, crosshairs can fall down, etc...... No, aiming the rifle while holding it at 45 degree angle is not optimum. But with fixed scope rings, you don't have many options and its always nice to have a plan B when Murphy's Law is in effect.

Oh I totally understand that it's his money. Notice how I'm not trying to pass a law to ban their sale to anyone but 3-gun competitors. I disagree that this a total thread jacking. We were asked what we thought about 45 degree sights. LD36 and I had a reasoned debate as to their use...it may be a little off on a tanget but definitely within the realm of the thread. No problem challenging eachother on those points.

I see your point, and your's is actually the best justification I've seen for them yet. I just question in what senario you'll be using that scoped AR realistically other than pleasure shooting. I can think of better precision rifles and set ups for fighting off the Chinese invasion and or looter mobs that will cost you less.

Just offering a different way to look at it. Take it or leave it.

 

[MikeDVB]

I'll be honest - if I had a magnified optic that wasn't on a quick disconnect mount, I would look at angled back-up irons. Even with a QD mount I would possibly go with the angled sights just for simplicity and quick ease of use.

Let's just, for the sake of example, say you're legitimately using your rifle to defend your property a hundred yards out. Could be people trying to attack you/your family, a pack of wolves / whatever situation you want to use.

One of them sneaks up on you from the side and ends up within about 15~20 yards from you. Are you going to try to point-shoot? Are you going to try and use your magnified optic? Are you going to remove the magnified optic using a QD mount and then flip up backups? Are you going to simply tilt your rifle a little and use already-mounted 45 degree sights? Are you going to flip out your 45 degree sights?

Is it likely you would end up in such a situation? No. You could choose to be prepared for something like this - or not.

Another example - you carry a handgun that holds 8 rounds. 8 rounds may be enough to stop 4 people, or it may not be enough to stop 1 person. Do you carry 1 extra magazine just in case? 2 extra magazines? No extra magazines?

Some will say you only need the 8 [or 7, or 1] and some will say you should carry as much as you can. Others will strike a medium by carrying one extra to allow some more flexibility without being burdensome.

At the end of the day - I would rather spend $30,000 [or $300] on something I only use once to save my life than spend $0 and potentially be totally unprepared for a life-threatening situation.

Just like I carry a $1,000 handgun around all day every day - I do not plan on using it and I do not hope to use it for defense. I carry it just in case, but hope that I go to my grave having never actually needed it.

At the end of the day - equip your rifle as you see fit. If you want 1859172581 attachments that make the rifle 45 pounds, go for it. Would I do it? No. Can you? That's up to you.

 

[rvb]

Everyone's discussing both long and close range in one big combined scenario. If that concept is a stretch for folks, let's assume you have a percieved need for a magnified optic (live in rural/farm setting, so yote control, etc) in addition to close-range in-home defensive use.... but not necessarily at the same time.

So do you keep 2 (or more) rifles next to your bed to be ready to use the "right tool" for the job? How do you know which one to grab? Is the dog in the backyard going nuts because of a yote looking for farm-fresh dinner, or an addict looking for cash? Which rifle do you grab?

I think the idea is that you have one tool that can do EITHER well (even if doing EVERYTHING in one situation is hard to imagine).

Now I would normally argue against the need for magnified optics on a defensive gun, but I wouldn't be against something like a TR-24 (1-4x) in a rural setting to fit the roll described above. If someone's using such a piece of glass, having back-up irons isn't a bad idea, and the 45* sights could fill that roll.

A big deal is made of the snag hazzard... and I think that issue is over-played. There's a lot to snag on a "standard" carbine setup (whatever that is).... front sight towers, bayo lugs, slings, lights, vert grips, ad nauseum. The concern would be WAY down on my list of design priorities....

I don't own any 45*s yet, but have shot a couple. It's incredibly instinctive. I find it LESS awkward than a std vertical hold.

-rvb

 

[Cerberus]

Now we have found our true mall ninja.
That wasn't a "it couldn't happen here" quote, that was a "even if it did happen here you're better served with something else"
See below.

Ok genious. Let me dig out my crayons for ya. Here is your words exactly.

"This is America. There is no realistic senario (sic) where your home defense AR-15 is ever going to get deployed at long range and then suddenly close range."

First off that is exactly the "it can't happen here" mentality. And secondly, there AR-15s, there is no such puppy as Home Defense AR-15. Mall Ninja? Do they carry old wood a steel guns? I do have all my firearms decked out with iron sights and slings or holsters, I also have cleaning kits for them and ammo. Is that Mall ninjaish?

 

[N_K_1984]

Holy thread revival, Batman!

I just had a thought and i wanted to share it. In defense of 45 degree offset Irons, what about a guy who throws a micro red dot offset, atop a long range optic?

The more I think about it, especially on an otherwise dedicated long range AR type rifle, offset irons or an MRDS make total sense. 1 rifle, many jobs. Think MK12 Mod1...

 

[efpeter]

Has anyone mentioned the XS Sights?
I have never had an opportunity to use them, but they really look like a good option. The big dot should make quick shots do-able. Friend has a set of them on a commander, and they seem a little coarse for my taste on a pistol, but they seem nice for a back set on a rifle.


XS Sight Systems - Sights

 

[MikeDVB]

I don't like the XS - covers up too much of the target/surrounding area.

A set of troy's on a 45* picatinny or the diamondheads would be nice. The diamondheads are nice because they stow like normal flip-ups but come out at 45*.