Antique Rifles

[xryan.jacksonx]

I'm considering a purchase of a pre 1899, antique rifle. I don't know a whole lot about what is out there. I don't intend it to be something that I take to the range every time, but I'd like something with at least semi available fixed ammunition. Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.

Thanks!

 

[LarryHoosier]

I have quite a bit of experience with antique cartridge rifles. If you want something to shoot occasionally with easily available ammo I would go with a Mosin Nagant M91 as a first choice. The antique dated ones are more difficult to locate but they are just as strongly built as the WWII versions. You can find these also with barrel markings later than 1898 but the receiver is dated earlier which makes it an antique rifle. Another good choice is the M1891 Argentine Mauser. Usually these are in great shape because they didn't go to war. If you can find a M1896 Krag rifle or carbine they also have ammo that is available, but the carbines are pricey. Rifles such as the Springfield trapdoor are fun to shoot but the available 45-70 cartridges are too powerful for the old actions so reloading is a necessity. If you are really lucky you might locate a Lee Enfield No. 1 MK 1 or a Lee Metford MK II, which have available british 303 ammo, dated prior to 1898.

I shoot many rifles older than the above listed, but use reloads for all and that is a completely different hobby!

 

[LarryC]

LarryHoosier has given you some good advice - remember many of the "antique" rifles were strictly Black powder, even cartridge type like the 45-70 (45 caliber - 70 grains of black powder) so you cannot safely use any smokeless cartridges in them. Lot of muzzle loading choices, but please - if you are not well versed in firearms and metal, have any "antique" inspected by a gunsmith and have him recommend loads for the gun.

I have an FFL-03 (collector) license and tend to purchase firearms from a little later period as there were a lot more made and prices are much lower - also in most cases ammo is still readily available and usually much cheaper than the "antique" type. I do have a M91 (don't remember the year made) and I do shoot it with standard, surplus 7.62 X 54R ammo. It is probably the least expensive "antique" firearm you can purchase that will use standard inexpensive ammo. You will have to check the date on the receiver though as there were made until the 1930 version came out (as I remember) - thus the 91-30 mosin.

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

Great info so far, thanks.

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

This seems to be an interesting rifle. What are the implications in regards to value with the original serial number and Imperial Eagle scratched out by the Germans?

Russian 1891 Nagant 7.62x54R (AL3395) - Collectors Firearms

 

[walt o]

Free advise is worth just what you pay for it .REMMINGTON 45/70 factory loads are well within pressure for trap door Springfield guns .Just look at the box or the Remmington web site.

 

[Gunaria]

This seems to be an interesting rifle. What are the implications in regards to value with the original serial number and Imperial Eagle scratched out by the Germans?

Russian 1891 Nagant 7.62x54R (AL3395) - Collectors Firearms

With a dark bore, I say it's $95 overpriced. That rifle has some neat history though.

 

[Mgderf]

This seems to be an interesting rifle. What are the implications in regards to value with the original serial number and Imperial Eagle scratched out by the Germans?

Russian 1891 Nagant 7.62x54R (AL3395) - Collectors Firearms

Another site bookmarked. Thank you.

 

[BogWalker]

Gewehr 88, Gewehr 98s depending on date, and Turk Mausers. Yes, Turk Mausers. They may have 1940's refurb dates stamped on them, but the receivers are all pre-1899.

 

[mkgr22]

d Turk Mausers. Yes, Turk Mausers. They may have 1940's refurb dates stamped on them, but the receivers are all pre-1899.

Sorry, that's flat out wrong. Model 1893 Turk mausers are probably all pre-1898 antiques, that have been re-arsenalled in the 1930's. But I wouldn't want to get in a debate with your average ATF agent about it, since it is hard to prove. A few other rare types exist too, but the typical 98 action Turk is not an antique.

 

[Buck67]

I shoot an 1874 Danish Rolling block chambered for the obsolete cartridge 11.7 X 56R. There are places that sell weird brass and bullets. Mine takes a 500 grain lead bullet and the brass was fireformed from 348 Winchester Brass. Guns that old should only be shot with real black powder, forget 777 or Pyrodex or anything else unless you want to be holding a handgrenade. My Danish Rolling Block will ring gongs at 500 meters if I do my part correctly. One thing interesting about reloading for the old single shots is that you don't have to resize the brass or crimp the bullet as long as the cartridges are used in the same gun. Just fill the cartridge with blackpowder, add a cushion wad and drop in the bullet.

Buck67

 

[indy1919a4]

One thing interesting about reloading for the old single shots is that you don't have to resize the brass or crimp the bullet as long as the cartridges are used in the same gun. Just fill the cartridge with blackpowder, add a cushion wad and drop in the bullet.

Buck67

That is neat, will the you ever need to even trim the length back???? And how do you keep the bullet seated in the brass???

And with out resizing any idea to how many shots you can get out of a single piece of brass????

Many thanks for sharing

 

[Buck67]

We are talking blackpowder pressures, so trimming to length is not something we worry about. I will check the brass for length after every 10 shots or so just as a matter of principle.

We don't worry about keeping the bullet seated in the brass because we are shooting single shot rifles, so there is no magazine or action for the cartridge to work through. As a matter of fact I do have to worry about keeping my ammo upright so the bullets don't fall out. If I was going hunting and had to worry about cartridge integrity I would crimp those bullets, but for shooting at a range, no need.

After every shoot, I wash the brass, tumble it to clean it and put it back to work. I check the brass for signs of stress, but they should be good for 50 or 100 shots. I had a few old shells that I got from the previous owner that split but again, this is blackpowder pressures, the action is tight, and that didn't cause any problems.

Buck67

 

[indy1919a4]

Buck67

Many thanks for the reply, I will be honest this sounds so darn nice that it sounds almost to good to be true...

I have put off purchases of some older guns because of the reloading issue..

This does give me some hope there...

One comment that you said earlier that causes me to ask some further clarification



"Guns that old should only be shot with real black powder, forget 777 or Pyrodex or anything else unless you want to be holding a handgrenade"



Can you explain that a bit more... Never shooting out of antique Black Powder guns before, I did not know that the substitutes could be a problem...

 

[Buck67]

The newer smokeless powders have a slightly different pressure spike than blackpowder. They also are more hygroscopic and can cause rusting faster than using blackpowder. All of the old guns shoot basically a cartridge case full of powder. As a matter of fact it is just about impossible to overload them with blackpowder. The modern 45/70 shells for instance will only hold about 65 grains because the brass shells are thicker than the originals. The modern blackpowder substitutes are equal by volume but not by weight. If you get confused as to which setting to use while loading then you could wind up with more powder and more pressure than you expected. For me it is just easier to use the original powder.

 

[indy1919a4]

The newer smokeless powders have a slightly different pressure spike than blackpowder. They also are more hygroscopic and can cause rusting faster than using blackpowder. All of the old guns shoot basically a cartridge case full of powder. As a matter of fact it is just about impossible to overload them with blackpowder. The modern 45/70 shells for instance will only hold about 65 grains because the brass shells are thicker than the originals. The modern blackpowder substitutes are equal by volume but not by weight. If you get confused as to which setting to use while loading then you could wind up with more powder and more pressure than you expected. For me it is just easier to use the original powder.

Ok that makes perfect sense.. So not so much that the newer substitutes are more dangerious then original black powder but they require some additional calculations for their safe use..

Again may thanks

 

[BogWalker]

Sorry, that's flat out wrong. Model 1893 Turk mausers are probably all pre-1898 antiques, that have been re-arsenalled in the 1930's. But I wouldn't want to get in a debate with your average ATF agent about it, since it is hard to prove. A few other rare types exist too, but the typical 98 action Turk is not an antique.

I was referring to the model of 1893 all of which are antiques. Refurb date doesn't matter as the receivers were all produced in the mid 1890's. I know the ATF has ruled on this, but I'm having trouble finding it. Didn't think about the 1903 contract Mauser 98s. Yeah, you're right the model 98s aren't antique, but the model 93s are.

 

[BugI02]

Making 11.7 x 56R ammo out of 348 winchester brass. My friend who has a couple of winchester 71s will be saddened by this leak in the supply of brass. Neither of us had any idea that these were being used in anything else but 450 alaskan. Thank you for that tasty bit of information Buck67

 

[Buck67]

There aren't many Danish rolling blocks that still shoot the original brass. Most were rechambered for 45/70.

 

[indy1919a4]

One thing interesting about reloading for the old single shots is that you don't have to resize the brass or crimp the bullet as long as the cartridges are used in the same gun. Just fill the cartridge with blackpowder, add a cushion wad and drop in the bullet.

Buck67

OMG... I saw this reloading process demonstrated today... Good Gravy this is one the coolest things I have ever seen ... It was manufacturing your own ammo out in the field.. And a really cheap easy way to keep an older black powder gun (Or newer gun) operating... And the hand tools needed are minimal.... Many thanks Buck67 for sharing this***