Another "victimless crime"

[femurphy77]

About time to rotate those tires and change the oil. . .

 

[BE Mike]

I've had some ideas rolling around in my head on this, and I'm not sure they are ready to express. But maybe I'll beta test one.

First of all, we know that the condition you are describing exists under the current policy of criminalization. Calling for more of the same must be recognized as foolhardy.

I'm thinking an addict could go to the local hospital and basically inform them he wishes to be DNR. He gets an ID or some such, and as long as he has it on him and the cops or emt's see it, they don't give the OD any Narcan. If you don't opt into that program, then you are legally obligated for all expenses related to your OD, including a mandatory rehab. Since so many addicts are poor, they will be offered work with a sponsor organization. That organization could be a business or charity, or possibly menial labor for a state agency wishing to participate. Offer tax incentives to sponsor businesses. Routine random drug tests will be administered, and a failure will result in consequences [haven't thought that part out, maybe they never leave the supervision of the rehab facility]. Upon payment of your debt, the sponsor has the option to employ you full time, or let you go, with or without a letter of recommendation. This will be costly, and must be in lieu of enforcement programs, not in addition to them.

I place too much value on human life to allow an addict to commit suicide, while I hold something that will save him/ her in my hand. In my way of thinking there is a lot of difference in that and allowing someone to pass because his body isn't naturally up to the task of keeping him alive without extraordinary medical procedures.

 

[Woobie]

I place too much value on human life to allow an addict to commit suicide, while I hold something that will save him/ her in my hand. In my way of thinking there is a lot of difference in that and allowing someone to pass because his body isn't naturally up to the task of keeping him alive without extraordinary medical procedures.

I am right there with you, but I also find it abhorrent to force things upon people. It isn't my place. I can extend the hand, and make the option as attractive as possible, but I refuse to make them conform to my will.

If God won't force His will upon me, who am I to force my will upon another?

 

[Woobie]

I didn't have to support it. It is the status quo. You want change. Fine. Where is your evidence?

As I said before, the present system isn't working well, but I don't have any suggested changes. You seem to be all-fired up about your approach. Where are the facts supporting your conclusions?

You've not been paying attention. Facts have been discussed in here. At front and center is the complete failure of our current system.

So you are willing to accept a very broken, very inhumane status quo. And you require nothing to convince you to accept that. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

I support filing prohibition under "still can't get it to work" and pursuing other options.

 

[ATM]

If the war on drugs had only been a failure, it wouldn't be nearly as bad, but it created new problems with larger and more widespread consequences for us all.

Genius is not required to see that it only exists to entrench the State monopoly of force and control at the expense of the people.

 

[Alpo]

You've not been paying attention. Facts have been discussed in here. At front and center is the complete failure of our current system.

So you are willing to accept a very broken, very inhumane status quo. And you require nothing to convince you to accept that. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

I support filing prohibition under "still can't get it to work" and pursuing other options.

Au contraire. I have been paying attention. Show me where else in the world where your proposal has worked, and worked well. You are stubbornly promoting a position without facts. Citations, please.

You speak of "other options", which means you don't have a concrete proposal with evidence of the likelihood of success.

 

[Woobie]

If the war on drugs had only been a failure, it wouldn't be nearly as bad, but it created new problems with larger and more widespread consequences for us all.

Genius is not required to see that it only exists to entrench the State monopoly of force and control at the expense of the people.

Exactly. Whereas we could be dealing with an addiction problem, we are dealing with an addiction problem and everything else. Prohibition has brought about large, powerful, wealthy, and sophisticated criminal organizations. It has left a trail of bodies from Canada to Columbia. Corrupt officials are bought off or murdered with their families. Unscrupulous, unaccountable dealers cut their produces with lethal chemicals. Addicts avoid help out of fear. Law enforcement refuses to investigate robberies in rural areas, their resources exhausted on drug enforcement. Federal agents and elite military units spend enormous resources playing international whack-a-mole.

It is expensive in lives and treasure, and it yields worse than 0 results. It's time for an overhaul.

 

[Woobie]

Au contraire. I have been paying attention. Show me where else in the world where your proposal has worked, and worked well. You are stubbornly promoting a position without facts. Citations, please.

You speak of "other options", which means you don't have a concrete proposal with evidence of the likelihood of success.

Sorry, I asked you several pages ago. You don't even need to give me data. I just want a good line of reasoning. But you can not even offer a decent rebuttal. This post I am quoting is a prime example.

Furthermore, I have been very clear about this, and you should have seen it, had you actually paid attention. Removing the prohibition is the appropriate step to take in ending all of the problems it has caused, especially in the light of its complete lack of success. Curing the drug problem is a distinct issue I have only briefly addressed.

 

[Alpo]

My answer is abstinence. We know that works. It is successful and documented.

You have not shown any data to support your "solution".

I'm out of here. It has become cyclical.

 

[Woobie]

My answer is abstinence. We know that works. It is successful and documented.

You have not shown any data to support your "solution".

I'm out of here. It has become cyclical.

Abstinence: But pointing a gun at someone and telling them to be abstinent is immoral and ineffective.

Do you really need data to see the failure of prohibition? You do see our current massive drug problem, don't you?

 

[ATM]

My answer is abstinence. We know that works...

Yes, that's what we're saying. Abstain from the war on drugs.

Everything got worse when we started using wars as an escape from reality.

 

[Woobie]

Yes, that's what we're saying. Abstain from the war on drugs.

Everything got worse when we started using wars as an escape from reality.

Hmm. The narcotic of government?

 

[Alpo]

Yes, that's what we're saying. Abstain from the war on drugs.

Everything got worse when we started using wars as an escape from reality.

It started here. (Alpo 1, ATM 0)

So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

 

[Woobie]

THAT is funny!

 

[ATM]

It started here. (Alpo 1, ATM 0)

I think the government has caused you to fall into a deep sleep and stole the rest of your ribs.


If you ever score a point on me, I'll probably know before you do.

 

[ATM]

Hmm. The narcotic of government?

Ancient and powerful is that drug.

 

[Alpo]

It was that sickening feeling you got as you foundered.

But, there are plenty who seek your approbation. I have never been in that tribe.

 

[ATM]

It was that sickening feeling you got as you foundered.

But, there are plenty who seek your approbation. I have never been in that tribe.

I often quote those who foundered this nation, they were an interesting tribe.

 

[Woobie]

Speaking of interesting. You know what would be fascinating? Any kind of evidence the humanitarian crisis we are creating with the War on Drugs is doing anything significant to achieve its stated aim.

 

[ATM]

Speaking of interesting. You know what would be fascinating? Any kind of evidence the humanitarian crisis we are creating with the War on Drugs is doing anything significant to achieve its stated aim.

In achieving the State's true aims, the stated goals are always lost and the opposite is generally achieved.

Just look at the war on poverty's stated goals compared to the rampant government dependency and welfare state it actually ushered in.