All Guns Are Always Loaded.

[JetGirl]

I tend to agree with another post that Annie made.....

!
I want it in writing. On T-shirts. And bumper stickers! I want it on a coffee mug!

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a post she's made with which I don't agree.

Aw...thanks!

 

[JByer323]

In my eyes, there's no excuse to have an accident while cleaning guns. I had a friend of mine who shot himself in the foot with a .22 that wasn't loaded when he started cleaning it. He's not stuck in a wheelchair or anything, but he can't walk properly either.

Prayers go out to the families affected.

 

[Jay]

Bill, now you've done it. We're gonna have to live with this for some time.......

T shirts, coffee mugs, and bumper stickers aren't gonna happen, but ....... never mind......

 

[BigCat]

A good reminder for all of us...but I hate it that it had to come like this. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and friends and I hope that someone learns from this and a future tragedy is averted.

 

[Wild Deuce]

The title of this thread caught my eye because of the egregious assault on Logic as well as the insult to my intelligence. I would only need to produce a single unloaded firearm out of my safe to prove the statement wrong. I would propose that ALL guns are NOT ALWAYS loaded. Where does that leave us in striving for the common goal of (gun) safety?

A few thoughts from Grant Cunningham on why the Treat Every Gun As If It Were Loaded / All Guns Are Always Loaded rule is poor policy. I have to agree.

What does it boil down to? .... the rule implies that you can treat an unloaded firearm differently (in other words, you can be stupid with it) than you would a loaded one. It's a little deeper than that but that is the gist of it. Good reading if you have a few minutes and your thinking cap is nearby.

Not picking a fight here. I just want to see a solid foundation from which we base our arguments ... in regards to safety or any other subject.

 

[Farmerjon]

Being a woodworker also, accidents/stupid things happen. Hopefully we can survive them. I do pray for the family members remaining. Lack of attention for a split moment can be fatal. I visit Blythe's at Valpo a lot, they are a good bunch for educating and telling someone when the scan the room to point up. When my girls were first learning to shoot their BB guns, muzzle point was stressed constantly. They learned well and we have enjoyed our guns for years. But, one moment of stupidity is all it takes.
Thanks JetGirl for providing the link to this wonderful forum!!!

 

[Jay]

The title of this thread caught my eye because of the egregious assault on Logic as well as the insult to my intelligence. I would only need to produce a single unloaded firearm out of my safe to prove the statement wrong. I would propose that ALL guns are NOT ALWAYS loaded. Where does that leave us in striving for the common goal of (gun) safety?

A few thoughts from Grant Cunningham on why the Treat Every Gun As If It Were Loaded / All Guns Are Always Loaded rule is poor policy. I have to agree.

What does it boil down to? .... the rule implies that you can treat an unloaded firearm differently (in other words, you can be stupid with it) than you would a loaded one. It's a little deeper than that but that is the gist of it. Good reading if you have a few minutes and your thinking cap is nearby.

Not picking a fight here. I just want to see a solid foundation from which we base our arguments ... in regards to safety or any other subject.

Don't play on semantics........

you CAN and DO treat a loaded gun differently than an unloaded one.

Ever practiced trigger squeeze in your home with a loaded gun? I didn't think so.

To each his/her own, but short of beating someone to death with it, you likely can't kill a person with an unloaded gun.... intentionally, or otherwise.

 

[SSGSAD]

I do not know who Grant Cunningham is, nor do I care..... When you handle a firearm, ANY firearm, you check it first, then I don't care how you handle it, as long as I am not in range..... I ALWAYS CHECK EVERY firearm, that is handed to me, or that I hand to someone else, and if you hand me a firearm, and I don't know how to check it, I will refuse to take it, until I see you check it, or you open it for me..... This is why I have NEVER "accidentally" shot someone else..... When Handling firearms, SAFETY, overrides everything else !!!!!

 

[ATM]

A few thoughts from Grant Cunningham on why the Treat Every Gun As If It Were Loaded / All Guns Are Always Loaded rule is poor policy. I have to agree.

Good read. Brings up valid points to consider.

Rule #1 seems straightfoward only through repetition but consider the confusion it causes to one's logic without providing any actual instruction (how do I treat these always loaded guns?) in and of itself.


ETA: The other responses seem to support the argument for doing away with it.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Is it "playing" semantics or is it letting words have meaning?

I hope everyone that responds to my comment reads the link provided before responding.

 

[JetGirl]

Wow! Zombie thread from 2/09! I'm just that cool.

 

[ATM]

Wow! Zombie thread from 2/09! I'm just that cool.

Yes you are.


This new topic deserves its own thread IMO.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

That is a somber reminder of gun safety.

 

[Wild Deuce]

The intent of my post was to get people to think logically through what they say or read. It was not meant to insult or ruffle feathers.

If the reader will just take the time to read my original post and follow the link, they will see that we have the exact same goal ... safety. I am proposing that safety starts with the mindset as opposed to the technique or the methodology. I never stated that a firearm should not be checked prior to handling (whether it's being picked up at the firing line, grabbed out of a bag, or pulled out of a safe). We can all agree on what the right thing to do would be in each case. What I am saying is that problems arise when dogma and reality collide. ATM said it best ... "What do I do with these always loaded guns?"

JetGirl, I know where you were coming from in your original post/title. We are in agreement. BTW, .... yes, you are that cool.

ATM, thanks for taking the time to read and consider the point I was making


BTW ... Grant Cunningham is the person that wrote the blog post I linked to. I just wanted to give proper credit up front. He also does some of the best revolver work out there.

 

[Serial Crusher]

I understand and agree with the premise of the link, but the article, and the rules themselves are only words, not actions. Actions, and the practice of them along with establishing good habits are the important part of this. A paradigm I use in many firearms debates is likening a firearm to a chainsaw and it also applies here. You can read the manual for a chainsaw until you have it memorized, and then go out and promptly kill yourself in an accident with it. The 4 rules are generally expanded upon, and that helps a little, but most of the learning is non-verbal. So when the rules are put into practice, the actions are completely non-verbal and have no cognitive dissonance.

 

[rvb]

the egregious assault on Logic as well as the insult to my intelligence. I would only need to produce a single unloaded firearm out of my safe to prove the statement wrong. I would propose that ALL guns are NOT ALWAYS loaded.

Don't play on semantics........

you CAN and DO treat a loaded gun differently than an unloaded one.

Ever practiced trigger squeeze in your home with a loaded gun? I didn't think so.

When I dryfire, all the same safety rules are followed. Muzzle direction, trigger finger, know my target and beyond, have a backstop, etc. The only difference in safety between a loaded gun and a gun I am dryfiring is the volume of the "shot" combined with a lack of hearing and eye protection. The gun is treated the same.

That is the INTENT of treating all guns as if they are loaded. The intent is not that you are confined to only touching the trigger on a range or while engagine an actual target (in that case you could never disasseble a glock); the intent is to cover the unusual circumstance that you believe a gun to be unloaded when it is not. The goal is to prevent you from harming yourself or someone else (or having to buy a new TV, assuming you care about destroying the one you have).

[singing]"I say pot[eh]to, you say pot[ah]to, let's call the whole thing off."[/singing]

The WORDS people use to describe the intent don't mean crap. I think [hope] everyone is getting to the same common end point, despite making it much more complicated than need be (that article is prime case in point).

-rvb

 

[cosermann]

3 rules. 4 rules. 10 rules. 14 rules. There have been many collections of rules.

However, there is a serious hole in all of them that needs filling by the "new" safety rule proposed at the end of this article.

The Gun Zone -- "The Rules"

In the end, whatever system you use, I'm pretty sure the following would be a major violation:

 

[rednecktoys]

My motto is keep your finger off the trigger unless its empty or if your ready for it to go boom!!!

 

[96firephoenix]

interesting read... not sure what to make of it, because I've been handed a rifle that I was told was unloaded, and when I went to confirm it, I cleared 11 rounds out of it. then I got the response "oh. it must be the other one that I keep unloaded." so I would say treat every gun as if it were loaded, even if you know to be other wise. people around you don't know it...

pointing an unloaded gun at someone can still be a felony...

 

[cosermann]

In the interest of keeping the pot stirred (and folks awareness of safety high), here's a link to Grant Cunningham's muckraking safety articles from his blog:

My muckraking safety articles | Techniques & Training, What's New! | GrantCunningham.com