AK VS AR when the SHTF

[bingley]

i predict that in any SHTF where the US collapses ammo for both will not be an issue. Many nations a interrest in the US 556 is the nato round and our allies will more than likly get involved and try establish order via a military peace keeping force. And on the flip side the russians and chinese have an interrest as well and will more than likely be shipping plenty of aks and ammo certain groups trying to seize power that they back.

Do you belong to these certain groups? If not, how do you propose to get ammo from the Russians and the Chinese? Wouldn't they give ammo only to people who would do their bidding?

I am always confused when people talk about "ammo availability" after SHTF. If you assume an economic collapse, then you can't order ammo from Midway or buy them at the local shop. There may not even be a currency system, and you'll have to barter with gold, jewelry, or for services. Those who command armed men will try to keep munition factories going, but they won't be setting up stores to sell retail, if they sell at all. To get ammo, you'll have to fight for somebody, steal from somebody, scavenge from dead bodies on battlefields, or pay a hefty price on the black market to buy from someone who fights for somebody, steals from somebody, or scavenges from the dead. This is not what I'd call "easy availability."

 

[IndyDave1776]

The effort to definitively establish which between the AR and AK is the better weapon for a prolonged critical situation is a spurious argument because when approached from the premise that one or the other is better, individual needs and preferences are not properly taken into consideration.

I propose the following questions, assuming that you can operate either weapon with comparable proficiency:

1. Ballistic performance: Which of the following best characterizes your needs?
a. Long range accuracy.
b. Short to intermediate range knockdown power.

2. Serviceability: Which of the following best characterizes your needs?
a. Close tolerances/better performance and reliable function with a modicum of maintenance.
b. Reliable performance with little or no maintenance and the receiver all but packed with mud.

3. Is fine accuracy important to you?
a. Yes
b. No

4. How do you establish your needs for performance versus cost?
a. You are willing to pay more for better fit, finish, and tolerances in both rifle and ammunition.
b. You want a rifle and ammunition that will allow you to lob a maximum amount of lead downrange at the lowest possible cost while still being an adequate defense system.

5. Is owning a domestically-produced weapon of importance to you?
a. Yes
b. No

6. Is accessory-friendliness a significant issue to you?
a. Yes
b. No

7. What skill level is more appropriate to your personal needs:
a. You are adequately skilled to maintain any weapon system likely to be available to you.
b. You need to keep use and maintenance as simple as possible.

I am not going to include replenishing ammunition by battlefield pickup since it is not likely to be a viable source of significant amounts of ammunition. I will second the idea that reality will have very little in common with zombie apocalypse video games.

Conclusion: If you answered 'a' to a majority of questions, pick the AR. If you answered 'b' to a majority, then pick the AK. If the results generated by this method do not match your own conclusion, then I recommend that you re-evaluate your position since you have either a theory or an understanding of your needs which is faulty--and it is better to sort this out now rather than waiting until you are stuck with what you have.

 

[jeremy]

I am an AK guy. Any of you who know me gets that. I have my reasons and I can run an AK better than a Russian. Its simply my preference.

But in the end, I will use whatever gun I find. Even your gun.

I ain't Hatchet Jack and I don't carry a .50 Hawken...

 

[Tydeeh22]

will these threads ever die? for the love of god.

 

[jeremy]

The effort to definitively establish which between the AR and AK is the better weapon for a prolonged critical situation is a spurious argument because when approached from the premise that one or the other is better, individual needs and preferences are not properly taken into consideration.

I propose the following questions, assuming that you can operate either weapon with comparable proficiency:

1. Ballistic performance: Which of the following best characterizes your needs?
a. Long range accuracy.
b. Short to intermediate range knockdown power.

2. Serviceability: Which of the following best characterizes your needs?
a. Close tolerances/better performance and reliable function with a modicum of maintenance.
b. Reliable performance with little or no maintenance and the receiver all but packed with mud.

3. Is fine accuracy important to you?
a. Yes
b. No

4. How do you establish your needs for performance versus cost?
a. You are willing to pay more for better fit, finish, and tolerances in both rifle and ammunition.
b. You want a rifle and ammunition that will allow you to lob a maximum amount of lead downrange at the lowest possible cost while still being an adequate defense system.

5. Is owning a domestically-produced weapon of importance to you?
a. Yes
b. No

6. Is accessory-friendliness a significant issue to you?
a. Yes
b. No

7. What skill level is more appropriate to your personal needs:
a. You are adequately skilled to maintain any weapon system likely to be available to you.
b. You need to keep use and maintenance as simple as possible.

I am not going to include replenishing ammunition by battlefield pickup since it is not likely to be a viable source of significant amounts of ammunition. I will second the idea that reality will have very little in common with zombie apocalypse video games.

Conclusion: If you answered 'a' to a majority of questions, pick the AR. If you answered 'b' to a majority, then pick the AK. If the results generated by this method do not match your own conclusion, then I recommend that you re-evaluate your position since you have either a theory or an understanding of your needs which is faulty--and it is better to sort this out now rather than waiting until you are stuck with what you have.

You do realize that depending on the fact of who made either the AR or the AK renders all your questions as less than useless...

 

[jeremy]

I stumbled upon this piece during a sleepless early morning (I ****ing HATE Daylight Savings Time!), anyway it amused me...

MichaelZWilliamson.com

 

[IndyDave1776]

You do realize that depending on the fact of who made either the AR or the AK renders all your questions as less than useless...

Yes. While I was leaning toward stock equipment, I was taking the long way to making the point that the correct answer to the question is entirely dependent on the individual and his own circumstances with not only these, but in practice more variables than Planters has nuts. Perhaps I succeeded at defeating my purpose. Oh well, it has happened before and most certainly will happen again.

 

[dom1104]

People who spend a lot of time figuring out which tool is better, in a hypothetical scenario, generally arent the type who spend time becoming better riflemen.

Just sayin.

 

[TheDude]

In America I rather have the ar15 since the ammo would be easy to find outside of the us I'd grab a ak for the same reason of ammo being avaliable

If im still standing after I run out of 7.62x39, there should be plenty of ARs laying around.

 

[lovemachine]

I sold my AR, and don't have an AK.

So my G19 and 870 will have to do.

 

[hookedonjeep]

Why not just get one of each?

Seems like a simple proposal..... stockpile ammo for each, and become proficient with both.....

 

[Fordtough25]

I have both and I will start out with the Maadi. I like the power of the 7.62 round and the AK is plenty accurate out to where it matters.

 

[Adamz04]

Im taking the ar15 just because its so much sexier

 

[churchmouse]

Do you belong to these certain groups? If not, how do you propose to get ammo from the Russians and the Chinese? Wouldn't they give ammo only to people who would do their bidding?

I am always confused when people talk about "ammo availability" after SHTF. If you assume an economic collapse, then you can't order ammo from Midway or buy them at the local shop. There may not even be a currency system, and you'll have to barter with gold, jewelry, or for services. Those who command armed men will try to keep munition factories going, but they won't be setting up stores to sell retail, if they sell at all. To get ammo, you'll have to fight for somebody, steal from somebody, scavenge from dead bodies on battlefields, or pay a hefty price on the black market to buy from someone who fights for somebody, steals from somebody, or scavenges from the dead. This is not what I'd call "easy availability."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I have said the same things and stated "If I have ammo and you have food, well, I will have your food" only to be looked upon as a villain. Buck up fellas,
this will be how it works. Get what you need. Keep it and use it sparingly if the flying feces hits the rotating oscillator. Reality check.

 

[bingley]

I have said the same things and stated "If I have ammo and you have food, well, I will have your food" only to be looked upon as a villain. Buck up fellas,
this will be how it works. Get what you need. Keep it and use it sparingly if the flying feces hits the rotating oscillator. Reality check.

I guess I can go Dwight Schrute on you: "If you have ammo and you use that to take food from somebody, that tells me where the ammo is. I have more ammo, and more armed men. My army and I will come take your ammo and your food. We'll leave you enough beet seeds to survive. It's the Code. There is mercy even in the utmost cruelty. But how will you grow beets in the acidic soil of central Indiana? Hahahahaha!"

Somehow people have a hard time imagining a situation other than "every man for himself" once SHTF. You can go to some SHTF places on earth (or places where survival is a constant struggle). You'll discover that social ties and some form of ethics have not disappeared. Why? Because we survive better working in groups, and to work in groups you need bonds and rules of conduct. Robbery mentality on a small scale won't get you very far.

Robbery mentality on a massive scale, on the other hand... That's where presidents and kings come from.

 

[churchmouse]

I guess I can go Dwight Schrute on you: "If you have ammo and you use that to take food from somebody, that tells me where the ammo is. I have more ammo, and more armed men. My army and I will come take your ammo and your food. We'll leave you enough beet seeds to survive. It's the Code. There is mercy even in the utmost cruelty. But how will you grow beets in the acidic soil of central Indiana? Hahahahaha!"

Somehow people have a hard time imagining a situation other than "every man for himself" once SHTF. You can go to some SHTF places on earth (or places where survival is a constant struggle). You'll discover that social ties and some form of ethics have not disappeared. Why? Because we survive better working in groups, and to work in groups you need bonds and rules of conduct. Robbery mentality on a small scale won't get you very far.

Robbery mentality on a massive scale, on the other hand... That's where presidents and kings come from.

Well, that is what I meant of course. If the S really HTF it will take some time for things to settle into any reasonable order. Except for the impending Zombie apocalypse of course. People will get ruthless in the need to survive. If properly prepared for such things a defensive posture will be required and little offensive. A low profile and a situationel awareness in a group of like minded folks will be needed to survive.
My comments were directed at those who believe that the best in mankind will surface in such a catastrophe. It will but only until hunger, sickness and panic take over. Even the most rational among us is capable of anything when your children are cold, hungry and in danger.
You describe the catch 22 of this whole thing. If I strike at you then a larger predator will see and hunt me. Good points. Lets hope we never have to put these theory's to the test.

And yes, we will have to follow the code........Parlay



Edit...in answer to the OP...An AR of course.

 

[IndyDave1776]

My proposal: BYO beans, bullets, and band-aids. Delete those who attempt to misappropriate that which has been set aside for your and yours. Problem solved.

 

[churchmouse]

My proposal: BYO beans, bullets, and band-aids. Delete those who attempt to misappropriate that which has been set aside for your and yours. Problem solved.

Simple yet effective.............I like it......

 

[bingley]

My comments were directed at those who believe that the best in mankind will surface in such a catastrophe.

Well, I think that. I believe the best of mankind will surface. But I also believe the worst of mankind will surface, along with everything in between. This is backed up by accounts of disasters. Some people go above and beyond the call of duty to save others, even at great risks to themselves. Some people loot, rape, rob, and even kill people who have lost everything. In crisis you see who you are, and sometimes your real face astounds you. But then frequently it's a continuation of your behavior in regular life. Your integrity doesn't change.

Maybe we're approaching things from different ends, or we just have different ways of talking about things. I have noticed a lot of people who seem to think that any catastrophe will send us hurtling into the dog-eat-dog world of Mad Max. That is naive and surely fear-driven. It's wise to be vigilant of the worst in mankind. But if you lose the ability of judgment (can't tell people with bad intentions from others) and if you let your fear guide your actions, soon the world you face will be the one you fear, because you will have made it that way for yourself. If you rob for food, many will immediately disqualify you as someone they'll collaborate with. They will answer your approach with a bullet. (Let's face it, who will stock food for SHTF scenarios without a plan for defense?)

The game is survival. It's not a competition in who has the hardest view of the world. The two are different, and in my opinion those who have the hardest view do not actually have the best chances of survival, because they have trouble cooperating with others. They're really only good as characters in TV mini-series to spice up the storyline because, even in a world of zombie apocalypse, the best survival strategies are too boring to put on TV.

 

[churchmouse]

Bingly,
Yes we are coming in from different sides of the same thing. I and my whole family would be on the front lines in rescue efforts and nursing the sick and or wounded. I have a deep soft spot for kids and their dogs if you get my meaning. A child would be innocent of the actions and effects brought on by adults. I also realize that I/we could not save them all or feed them all. I would dye trying but that would have to be a group effort taken on by many who have prepared for such things. I just do not see this in a long term shutdown of our infrastructure.


It would be as you see it for a while until the part of society I fear even now would get organized and run amok for food, ammo and such. Then it is the defensive posture you wrote of. That is when things would really get ugly. That is my fear in these scenarios. There is good in most folks. There are those with little or no respect for life right now. Without any law enforcement (Katrina and other examples) they would be un-leashed.


I agree with most all you have stated. I just know human nature. I travel to work in areas most would not go in daytime let alone after dark. I see a side of society most ignore or have a state of denial about. I have a strong sense of awareness around those folks even now. If SHTF they are who would be robbing for food. I would do all possible to maintain in the group we have of like thinking people. It would be a serious mistake to try and take from that group.
You are well spoken. Thank you for your thoughts.


Edit...I reference the random shooting at the canal in downtown Indy on Saturday night....I have no idea of the ethnicity of these young thugs and that is not the point but they are the folks I fear in this world. To start firing in such a crowded area shows no respect for life. How would they act if there was no Law, social order or recourse for their actions....Savage.