AAR: Tom Givens / Rangemaster Advanced Pistol Skills in Nappanee, IN 2014-06-28

[rhino]

Fair enough, sir. Fair enough.

 

[VERT]

Fair enough, sir. Fair enough.

Figured you would understand!

 

[jblomenberg16]

Poopie Pants draw resembles an awkward ankle holster vs flopped on the floor sort of hybrid approach. Shower draw is none if your business. Shower time is me time.

VERT...that may be your training niche! Quick, better put an "all rights reserved" tag line behind that before some big name trainer picks up on it!

 

[rhino]

I'm big, and I do have a name, but I'm not a Big Name. Safe!

 

[jdhaines]

Pretty much everything you said supports the "stance is a luxury" concept. You make choices when you can to optimize the results. That's a luxury having the opportunity to make those choices. If you're moving, falling, on the ground, in a vehicle, bending over to pick up a paperclip, sitting at a table, dancing, making a big poop, taking a shower, reading in the library (not taking a poop), watching television, etc. etc. etc. you probably won't have the same luxury.

Symantics. If we're talking about stance, then we're obviously standing. It's the feet and body position of how we're standing. If we're doing anything other than that, then you just have to do the best you can. If you want to say "being on your feet is a luxury" I'll sign on the dotted line. If you are on your feet, then I don't think being in a stance you are comfortable in is that much of a stretch or that I should spend any amount of time training to be standing, but not in my normal "stance."

 

[cedartop]

Why do you shift your feet to shoot SHO?

I thought of this last night when watching the Pantaeo DVD with Bill Rogers. He advocates a stance very much like Tom when using one hand. It is always interesting to me when top level guys argue techniques.

 

[Coach]

I thought of this last night when watching the Pantaeo DVD with Bill Rogers. He advocates a stance very much like Tom when using one hand. It is always interesting to me when top level guys argue techniques.

I hope I did not come across as argumentative. I do not want to be critical of VERT's shooting, especially since I don't know him. I don't want this to turn into another food fight about competition versus real world or whatever.

However, I think there is a point about speed to be made here. I think there is a point about technique to be made. I, you, we shoot a crap load of rounds from a luxurious square stance. Now when the competition or the gun fight calls for SHO shooting why would we change our stance to deliver accurate rounds SHO? The obvious answer is because this other stance provides better stability or something. I don't think it does for starters, but I may not be able to convince a die hard believer. The other thing is that while I am shifting from freestyle shooting to SHO shooting moving my feet slows that process. The timer can prove it. Go back and look at the video. While shifting the feet rounds are not being delivered.

Now the tactical crowd is gathering itself and getting ready to say this is not competition but gun fighting. Where is speed more important competition or when you life is on the line? Align the sights, press the trigger and go home at the end of the day. While you are shifting your feet some people can draw and shoot accurately. If they already have their gun out and pointed at you nearly everyone can shoot accurately. Shifting the feet moves you down on the score sheet and that is a fact. In a serious situation it may make you a big loser. My belief is I should only change what I have to change when shooting SHO. The feet do not have to be changed. I suggest everyone do what they think is best. Let no man who thinks he is right falter.

 

[VERT]

No criticism or offense taken. I posted the video as it seem relevant to the discussion as this is the SHO technique used in this course. As far as competition vs real life, that is really a speed vs accuracy discussion. Seems there is a place for multiple techniques. NRA course books (gasp...NRA...those losers...) refers to these positions as a punch and reverse punch (if memory serves me, I am bad with terminology). As far as Givens course I think the reason for the body shift is to get more weight behind the gun and tighten the upper body muscles. Light polymer guns need something to reciprocate against, that being the person holding it. The forward punch is also very stable for accuracy. I can see where this position won't work. Very close a person might need to have their off hand out fending things off or gathering people up. The reverse punch, SHO back, would be faster if a person already has there strong side foot back.

Some know I have the privilege of working with new shooters. I think having a working knowledge of simple stances, body mechanics and such is useful. Especially when we start dealing with either small people or small guns. In fact it is probably more important for small people or ladies to know how to shoot.

Oh and I have met Coach. Can't say I know you but have met you and have seen that you are a competitive shooter with much to offer.

 

[cedartop]

Coach. I wasn't at all suggesting you were being overly critical or needlessly arguing. I truly fi d it interesting when people of high skill levels, training and experience disagree on these things. The more I broaden my base of knowledge by seeking out different training the more I see of this. It would be nice if there were clear cut simple answers but such doesn't seem to be the case with certain things. People of good will, knowledge, and intention can and do disagree. I don't see this as a competition versus tactical thing.

 

[Coach]

speed vs accuracy discussion.
QUOTE]

In USPSA or on the street you need both not one or the other.

 

[Coach]

Coach. I wasn't at all suggesting you were being overly critical or needlessly arguing. I truly fi d it interesting when people of high skill levels, training and experience disagree on these things. The more I broaden my base of knowledge by seeking out different training the more I see of this. It would be nice if there were clear cut simple answers but such doesn't seem to be the case with certain things. People of good will, knowledge, and intention can and do disagree. I don't see this as a competition versus tactical thing.

Simple answers would be nice. I guess I would say it like this the bonus of the different position for SHO is offset by the time it takes to shift the feet.

 

[Jackson]

I've been looking for a photo or video of Ed Mcgivern shooting a DA revolver one-handed. I believe I've seen one of him before and the position he uses may be worth discussing in this thread. However, I cannot locate the photo or video, whichever it was.

 

[rhino]

Probably not a huge surprise, but I agree with Coach.

I used to (for years) move my shooting side forward when shooting one-handed. After I started using a more squared-up body position (when possible) for everything from pistols to rifles, to shotguns, I reexamined that. Combined with the reality that shifting your feet and body costs valuable time, I gave it a try shooting one handed from the same positions I do everything else. I wasn't any less accurate and my shot-to-shot splits weren't any slower. In fact, I probably shoot better this way now.

Yesterday in a match we had to shoot a couple of poppers along the left side of a boundary/wall section. I knew I'd be in a precarious position with my balance if I used both hands like everyone else, so I decided to shift the gun to my left hand and shoot both poppers support hand only. If I had put my left foot forward the way I used to do it, I would have fallen over backward. Staying with my body facing the targets, I was able to push out enough to get a bead on the poppers and still remain relatively stable. So this is one anecdote where 1) putting my weak side forward would have been problematic, and 2) I did fine with doing it.

I hope I did not come across as argumentative. I do not want to be critical of VERT's shooting, especially since I don't know him. I don't want this to turn into another food fight about competition versus real world or whatever.

However, I think there is a point about speed to be made here. I think there is a point about technique to be made. I, you, we shoot a crap load of rounds from a luxurious square stance. Now when the competition or the gun fight calls for SHO shooting why would we change our stance to deliver accurate rounds SHO? The obvious answer is because this other stance provides better stability or something. I don't think it does for starters, but I may not be able to convince a die hard believer. The other thing is that while I am shifting from freestyle shooting to SHO shooting moving my feet slows that process. The timer can prove it. Go back and look at the video. While shifting the feet rounds are not being delivered.

Now the tactical crowd is gathering itself and getting ready to say this is not competition but gun fighting. Where is speed more important competition or when you life is on the line? Align the sights, press the trigger and go home at the end of the day. While you are shifting your feet some people can draw and shoot accurately. If they already have their gun out and pointed at you nearly everyone can shoot accurately. Shifting the feet moves you down on the score sheet and that is a fact. In a serious situation it may make you a big loser. My belief is I should only change what I have to change when shooting SHO. The feet do not have to be changed. I suggest everyone do what they think is best. Let no man who thinks he is right falter.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Good debate and discussion here (which is technically called arguing...which is fine!!!!)! It is when arguments get away from facts and data that gives that word such a negative connotation.

Anyway, as one of the least experienced shooters involved in the discussion (never been in a pistol competition or gun fight), the thing I found interesting was drawing to fire SHO. VERT transitioned as part of a competition. But what about off the draw? Say you have something in your support hand (phone, kid, groceries, etc.) and have to draw and shoot.

Putting the strong foot forward will almost be your natural mechanics, as if throwing a punch, and for me seems to put the gun on target. Try it tonight at home with a blue gun both ways. Strong foot points the gun very naturally at the target as the hips and shoulders move through and help point the body. Stepping with the weak foot and then pushing the gun forward on target makes for some wind up in the hips and shoulders and you are fighting that. I am finding that I present the gun low and left of my intended target and have to really focus on getting it back on target.

For me, it is very natural and more stable. Another way to think about it is throwing a baseball or football right handed. Yes, most techniques start with a small step with the left foot to plant it for throwing, but the right leg and foot follows through as the ball is released, allow with hips and shoulders, and is KEY to accuracy when throwing either (unless you are Peyton Manning or Roger Clemons and just so strong and talented that it doesn't matter).

Thoughts? I'll admit I haven't done any timed drills at the range to see which is most accurate, so this is all a "feel" thing at this point to me. Just like a bad golf swing can "feel good" but be very bad, I'm interested in learning and developing a good method.

As said though, if I already have another stance established, I'm not sure it would make sense to change.

 

[Coach]

Good debate and discussion here (which is technically called arguing...which is fine!!!!)! It is when arguments get away from facts and data that gives that word such a negative connotation.

Anyway, as one of the least experienced shooters involved in the discussion (never been in a pistol competition or gun fight), the thing I found interesting was drawing to fire SHO. VERT transitioned as part of a competition. But what about off the draw? Say you have something in your support hand (phone, kid, groceries, etc.) and have to draw and shoot.

Putting the strong foot forward will almost be your natural mechanics, as if throwing a punch, and for me seems to put the gun on target. Try it tonight at home with a blue gun both ways. Strong foot points the gun very naturally at the target as the hips and shoulders move through and help point the body. Stepping with the weak foot and then pushing the gun forward on target makes for some wind up in the hips and shoulders and you are fighting that. I am finding that I present the gun low and left of my intended target and have to really focus on getting it back on target.

For me, it is very natural and more stable. Another way to think about it is throwing a baseball or football right handed. Yes, most techniques start with a small step with the left foot to plant it for throwing, but the right leg and foot follows through as the ball is released, allow with hips and shoulders, and is KEY to accuracy when throwing either (unless you are Peyton Manning or Roger Clemons and just so strong and talented that it doesn't matter).

Thoughts? I'll admit I haven't done any timed drills at the range to see which is most accurate, so this is all a "feel" thing at this point to me. Just like a bad golf swing can "feel good" but be very bad, I'm interested in learning and developing a good method.

As said though, if I already have another stance established, I'm not sure it would make sense to change.

In the last 10 years I have done a fair amount of drawing, and timing things. I did 60 draws, and some SHO dryfire a few minutes ago. I posed the original question about shifting the feet because without a doubt it is slower. How do I know? dry fire and live fire on the timer. Stance being a luxury came up and has been batted around, several good or great instructors teaching a position of technique has been added as well. Everyone is free to do what they want. The timer does not lie. If I have to deliver shots quickly, as in a gun fight or competition, and it must be done SHO the fastest way to do it is to just put the gun up to the eye and shoot. Leave the feet where ever they are.

 

[Coach]

This clip is meant to be a defense of the concept that stance is a luxury. My hits were all good on these two strings. (Not true of the third and weak hand string) The barricade is right in my way for my normal stance, and it causes a wide transition that slows things down. The time on the first run was 8 shots in 5.68 seconds. I decided to game things on the second string, and the SHO string was 8 shots in 5.59 and the hits were also good. You simply have to align the sights and press the trigger.

[video=youtube;9aKAA5uwkhY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aKAA5uwkhY&list=UU4RXvjOjXvzlcbGKfn2Edzg[/video]

 

[rhino]

Shooting around cover is another situation where you can't always choose how you stand (as per the example with Coach above).

I shot the same stage in 27.44 sec vs. Coach's 21.38. I had 104 of 120 available points with only one bad hit (a D on one target). The points are low because I was shooting minor power factor (9mm), so it was one D, 6 C, and 17 A hits.

I actually remembered this conversation when I was standing in the box trying to figure out how to position myself. There's not much choice when you're in the box and I'm not able to stand on the boards like Coach does. The only way I could do it was to stand square with the barricade/cover and then press out to the side as much as I needed to see the targets. I actually shot six of them from the left side with my left hand because it was easier to see them that way.