AAR: Tom Givens / Rangemaster Advanced Pistol Skills in Nappanee, IN 2014-06-28

[Jackson]

Just for Jackson I am going to attempt my very first ever YouTube post. This is me shooting a classifier at South Central today. This particular classifier is similar to the type of drill we did last weekend. The shooter draws and engages three targets at 15 yards, reloads, and reengages the targets with one hand. The target and distance is different but the technique is basically the same. Feel free to critique, criticize and poke fun. I don't really know how I did yet because scores are not posted yet.

Oh and for all of those polymer guys that is in fact an all American 1911 throwing full power loads downrange.

Showing us a good example of the "advanced" shooter. :-)

 

[VERT]

Showing us a good example of the "advanced" shooter. :-)

I wouldn't go that far. But I am less novice then a rookie cop.

 

[rhino]

Just for Jackson I am going to attempt my very first ever YouTube post. This is me shooting a classifier at South Central today. This particular classifier is similar to the type of drill we did last weekend. The shooter draws and engages three targets at 15 yards, reloads, and reengages the targets with one hand. The target and distance is different but the technique is basically the same. Feel free to critique, criticize and poke fun. I don't really know how I did yet because scores are not posted yet.

Can't see too much of what you're doing with your hands, but I did notice a couple of things.

• When you lean to your support side before your draw, you're probably losing a little time. If you're moving when you do it, you can absorb that time, but when standing still, it can add a tenth of a second or two. Depending on your body mechanics and where you wear your holster, it might be necessary, but it also might not be. If you watch Coach or any of the other really consistent shooters draw, they do not lean.
• When you switched to strong hand only, you lost significant time shuffling your feet. It may feel better to have your strong foot forward, but I would recommend learning to shoot strong and weak hand without moving your feet. Wherever your feet are when you draw, grip it and rip it without the foot movement. Remember, stance is a luxury! It's all about time, whether it's USPSA or saving your life.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

I am less novice then a rookie cop.

Makes me wonder if you missed your calling... Trainer extraordinaire?

 

[VERT]

Can't see too much of what you're doing with your hands, but I did notice a couple of things.

• When you lean to your support side before your draw, you're probably losing a little time. If you're moving when you do it, you can absorb that time, but when standing still, it can add a tenth of a second or two. Depending on your body mechanics and where you wear your holster, it might be necessary, but it also might not be. If you watch Coach or any of the other really consistent shooters draw, they do not lean.
• When you switched to strong hand only, you lost significant time shuffling your feet. It may feel better to have your strong foot forward, but I would recommend learning to shoot strong and weak hand without moving your feet. Wherever your feet are when you draw, grip it and rip it without the foot movement. Remember, stance is a luxury! It's all about time, whether it's USPSA or saving your life.

Good comments and I appreciate the feedback. I will look at my draw more closely. I will tell you this is not a competition holster but my actual street gear and I wear my gun high. My fist is above my pectoral for the gun to clear. My draw out of a lower riding bladetech is faster but I usually shoot using the same gun I carry to the range. As far as feet Givens actually teaches and promotes the one handed technique that was in this video. Hence why I posted it as it seemed relevant to the discussion. What I need to work on is moving my feet during the reload while not stepping out of the box. Speed was too slow but I got good hits. Little details such as footwork is really what separates the A from the C class shooters.

I did see my scores last might. Overall not too bad. Pretty average overall. They are linked over on the shooting sports forum.

 

[VERT]

Makes me wonder if you missed your calling... Trainer extraordinaire?

Not even close. You know better. But I don't mind people critiquing if it adds to the quality of the discussion.

 

[Coach]

Just for Jackson I am going to attempt my very first ever YouTube post. This is me shooting a classifier at South Central today. This particular classifier is similar to the type of drill we did last weekend. The shooter draws and engages three targets at 15 yards, reloads, and reengages the targets with one hand. The target and distance is different but the technique is basically the same. Feel free to critique, criticize and poke fun. I don't really know how I did yet because scores are not posted yet.

[video=youtube;8BsSN6fyCQg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BsSN6fyCQg[/video]

Oh and for all of those polymer guys that is in fact an all American 1911 throwing full power loads downrange.

Why do you shift your feet to shoot SHO?

 

[rhino]

Good comments and I appreciate the feedback. I will look at my draw more closely. I will tell you this is not a competition holster but my actual street gear and I wear my gun high. My fist is above my pectoral for the gun to clear. My draw out of a lower riding bladetech is faster but I usually shoot using the same gun I carry to the range. As far as feet Givens actually teaches and promotes the one handed technique that was in this video. Hence why I posted it as it seemed relevant to the discussion. What I need to work on is moving my feet during the reload while not stepping out of the box. Speed was too slow but I got good hits. Little details such as footwork is really what separates the A from the C class shooters.

I did see my scores last might. Overall not too bad. Pretty average overall. They are linked over on the shooting sports forum.

I could tell you had a carry holster (all of mine are carry holsters). I think you could still clear the top of your holster without leaning, or at least as much. Take a look at the video where you draw your gun at the Make Ready command and notice that you leaned a lot less there (and when reholstering) than you did when you drew on the Start signal.

Most people who lean don't really need to do it unless they have injury. They just get in the habit and their subconscious brain tells them that they need to do it.

Putting the strong side foot forward when you have the opportunity to start that way is fine if it helps you. If you start squared to the target/threat, it still makes sense to leave your feet where they are and just shoot. Stance is a luxury! The exception would be if you were moving, but you don't always have that option, whether it's USPSA or saving your life.

 

[Coach]

If you shoot all those rounds that you shoot from your freestyle stance, and no movement is called for or necessary in the situation, then shifting your feet is a complete waste of time. Wasting time in USPSA, IDPA, or a gunfight is counter productive. I think in the big picture I only want to change what I have to change when I shift from Freestyle, SHO, WHO. It does not matter if I am gaming or shooting people who need to be shot. I need to get a hit right now and I don't have to move my feet to do that.

Stance is a luxury is a great way of putting it, and that concept is a big deal in defensive shooting.

 

[jdhaines]

I've never liked the stance is a luxury thing. Stance MAY be a luxury. If you train to use the same stance for everything you do, then I don't think it's so difficult to imagine you'll find yourself there. Since I started as a blank slate, I have sorted out how to talk/MUC, pistol shoot, rifle shoot, box, grapple, and use a knife all from the same exact stance. When I'm moving around and stop...I stop in that stance. When I'm talking to someone in public, I am in that stance. I'm not good at keeping my hands up high yet...but my feet are always in the same place. It can be done. If you have 10 years of tae kwon do, and shoot from weaver...stance may be a luxury.

My stance was built from the ground up piece by piece by Cecil Burch during a CMD lesson and it just so happens it is the same foot position that wrestlers use, left tackles use, and a host of other people use who need a solid mix of being able to possibly take an impact, or possibly move from either side. It's not the best at launching sideways and it's not the best at taking impact...but it's the best mix of the two that I've ever seen and I've tried them all at various times. Don't take my word for it...here's some words from our sponsors...

(Because Charles Brown says so)

(Because Cary Kolat says so)

(Because Rampage and Wanderlei both say so)
(and these dudes say so)

(And finally because this bearded heathen and his trusty sidekick say so)


</thread_jack>

 

[VERT]

I find the stance conversation/debate/development interesting. Personally I shoot a better out of a Weaverish stance but it is not good for moving. I do like the SHO shooting side leg forward as shown in the video. I find it to be a more stable position for me. Obviously it gave up time in this particular drill. I went back to look at the scores from the match and what I noticed is that I got good hits and a pretty average time. Being able to look at scores on PractiScore is fun, USPSA is a sport that seems to favor speed.

Back to the topic, Givens course puts a lot of emphasis on accuracy. Drills were timed but this was done as sort of a par time. A participant might be given 15 seconds to complete a drill. Misses would be given a time penalty or the shooter would have to take the "walk of shame". Time is your enemy so obviously a person has to be fast enough. I suppose this is a bit subjective because what is fast enough? Nobody can argue that faster isn't better. Only hits stop threats so we have to be accurate enough. Again what is accurate enough? Shoot the guy in the pinky toe and he might fall down and quit, or blow his heart apart and he might continue beating you to death. Couple things that are hard to ignore, missing takes time & missing creates a liability.

 

[Coach]

I've never liked the stance is a luxury thing. Stance MAY be a luxury. If you train to use the same stance for everything you do, then I don't think it's so difficult to imagine you'll find yourself there. Since I started as a blank slate, I have sorted out how to talk/MUC, pistol shoot, rifle shoot, box, grapple, and use a knife all from the same exact stance. When I'm moving around and stop...I stop in that stance. When I'm talking to someone in public, I am in that stance. I'm not good at keeping my hands up high yet...but my feet are always in the same place. It can be done. If you have 10 years of tae kwon do, and shoot from weaver...stance may be a luxury.

My stance was built from the ground up piece by piece by Cecil Burch during a CMD lesson and it just so happens it is the same foot position that wrestlers use, left tackles use, and a host of other people use who need a solid mix of being able to possibly take an impact, or possibly move from either side. It's not the best at launching sideways and it's not the best at taking impact...but it's the best mix of the two that I've ever seen and I've tried them all at various times. Don't take my word for it...here's some words from our sponsors...

(Because Charles Brown says so)

(Because Cary Kolat says so)

(Because Rampage and Wanderlei both say so)
View attachment 30079 (and these dudes say so)

(And finally because this bearded heathen and his trusty sidekick say so)


</thread_jack>

So what happens to your stance when you are in a vehicle, when you have been knocked down and you have to use your pistol? What if shooting from cover is necessary and that will not allow your stance?

 

[Coach]

I find the stance conversation/debate/development interesting. Personally I shoot a better out of a Weaverish stance but it is not good for moving. I do like the SHO shooting side leg forward as shown in the video. I find it to be a more stable position for me. Obviously it gave up time in this particular drill. I went back to look at the scores from the match and what I noticed is that I got good hits and a pretty average time. Being able to look at scores on PractiScore is fun, USPSA is a sport that seems to favor speed.

Back to the topic, Givens course puts a lot of emphasis on accuracy. Drills were timed but this was done as sort of a par time. A participant might be given 15 seconds to complete a drill. Misses would be given a time penalty or the shooter would have to take the "walk of shame". Time is your enemy so obviously a person has to be fast enough. I suppose this is a bit subjective because what is fast enough? Nobody can argue that faster isn't better. Only hits stop threats so we have to be accurate enough. Again what is accurate enough? Shoot the guy in the pinky toe and he might fall down and quit, or blow his heart apart and he might continue beating you to death. Couple things that are hard to ignore, missing takes time & missing creates a liability.

I never said anything about missing.

 

[cedartop]

So what happens to your stance when you are in a vehicle, when you have been knocked down and you have to use your pistol? What if shooting from cover is necessary and that will not allow your stance?

IMO it is not either or. Just like we always have two hands on the gun if possible for optimum usage, I am going to get in my preferred stance if possible. As you point out it is not always possible so just like we train one handed shooting we also train to fight with or without our gun from other positions.

 

[VERT]

I never said anything about missing.

True I doubt you would miss. Interesting thing though. I pulled up the scores and looked at points and penalties for the stage. Assuming the penalties are misses, 41 of 58 shooters managed to miss the target completely. That is 70%. Back to Givens, his standard would basically be anything out of the A zone is a miss. Nobody scored 120 points. Best was 115 and I was second at 112. So I only got 16 A zone hits which means I missed 8 times. My guess is I managed some of these with my WHO shots.

I have to agree that stance is a luxury. Givens refers to stance as a fighting platform. If platform is taken away you still have sights and trigger control. Take the sights away and we still have trigger control. You want to shot with your feet moving or from unorthodox positions then you still need trigger control. Given the choice I would also like to have some of those other shooting fundamentals as well. Of course it is nice to want things.

 

[Coach]

IMO it is not either or. Just like we always have two hands on the gun if possible for optimum usage, I am going to get in my preferred stance if possible. As you point out it is not always possible so just like we train one handed shooting we also train to fight with or without our gun from other positions.

If we have the time and space stance can certainly help, but we have to be able to get good hits without it. The handy thing is that with the handgun stance is not necessary.

 

[rhino]

I've never liked the stance is a luxury thing. Stance MAY be a luxury. If you train to use the same stance for everything you do, then I don't think it's so difficult to imagine you'll find yourself there. Since I started as a blank slate, I have sorted out how to talk/MUC, pistol shoot, rifle shoot, box, grapple, and use a knife all from the same exact stance. When I'm moving around and stop...I stop in that stance. When I'm talking to someone in public, I am in that stance. I'm not good at keeping my hands up high yet...but my feet are always in the same place. It can be done. If you have 10 years of tae kwon do, and shoot from weaver...stance may be a luxury.

Pretty much everything you said supports the "stance is a luxury" concept. You make choices when you can to optimize the results. That's a luxury having the opportunity to make those choices. If you're moving, falling, on the ground, in a vehicle, bending over to pick up a paperclip, sitting at a table, dancing, making a big poop, taking a shower, reading in the library (not taking a poop), watching television, etc. etc. etc. you probably won't have the same luxury.

 

[VERT]

I try to regularity practice my drawstroke while making a poop. While in the shower I just leave the gun in the ziplock bag.

 

[rhino]

I try to regularity practice my drawstroke while making a poop. While in the shower I just leave the gun in the ziplock bag.

So what stance do you use in both situations?

 

[VERT]

Poopie Pants draw resembles an awkward ankle holster vs flopped on the floor sort of hybrid approach. Shower draw is none if your business. Shower time is me time.