A very sober look at the tragedy in Norway and our responsibility

[Titanium_Frost]

That's understandable but what about when I carry a long gun? Any different? It is hidden and not usually in plain view but also not in a case.

 

[lrahm]

Should be the same. I am probably a little more paranoid. I don't want to explain a missing weapon from my car. I need to just buy an overhead lock. We use to have some but not any more. Years ago we had the upright ones for shotguns but a chief stated it was too aggressive looking.

 

[j706]

What is you guys' take on regular civilians packing long guns around? I have an AK and an AR along with a pump and semi shotgun that like to live in my vehicle from time to time. All loaded with extra mags/shells. I know it is perfectly legal but I'm interested in what would happen in a stop? I already know j706 doesn't exactly care for OC. What about an AK in the back seat?

Where I live I run across people with long guns quite often. I don't have any problem with it what so ever. Matter of fact I am glad to see it. I am a gun nut. And while I don't understand the OC thing I still do not hassle people doing it. Matter of fact, as a general rule I seldom even check permits if nothing else appears to be going on. I figure if a guy tells you he has one then he does. If I get sent on a MWAG call I am required by SOP to attempt to locate and ascertain their intentions and legal status. As of late that has been happening a LOT for some reason. But then again we have a very ignorant dispatch center. Last night I got sent on a suspicious persons call. The call said a 35 year old and a ten year old male walking down a street. It went on to say the caller was not sure what they were up to or if they should be together. I hit in and asked what they were supposedly doing that was suspicious. I was answered by "Just walking and the RP wants them checked out"!!!! I promptly hit back in with "In service". This was a 911 call no less! Some people I swear. My point with all that is if dispatchers would use a little common sense we could avoid much of the nonsense.

 

[j706]

Many a time my AR rides up front, it like the view (comic relief). No, there has been some nights where I have to put it up front. The shotgun is a little different story. I was taught a long time ago that the sidearm for officers should be their secondary weapon. If you think about it, it makes sense. If you are sent on an alarm or shots fired type of run, the handgun should be secondary. The shotgun comes out.

We have vertical gun mounts between the front seat. The locks are the type that uses a special key instead of a cuff key. The wiring is hidden between two steel plates and the release button is in a secret place. The release is located where the cars assigned officer wants it. My others are in the trunk.

As for the stuff I carry I do get a fair amount of good natured ribbing from the brass on down. But I am qualified with all the weapons I carry as per SOP. More than likely I will never need any of it. But I would rather never be outgunned and I sure as heck don't ever want to run out of ammo. I am not paranoid just prepared. I would sure hate to have something bad go down and not have the stuff to deal with it.

All calls involving a weapon ect. are long gun runs. And I agree 100% with you on calls where the handgun is a secondary.

I am fortunate to work for two different agency's that trust their guys and bend over backwards to get us into good training (If you want it) get us good gear and will spend the $$$ to do so.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

That answers my questions very well, thank you officers. And to j706, thanks for clarifying the OC issue we seem to have. You may not understand OC but I can not understand people who try to convince others it isn't the way to go.

 

[lrahm]

Where I live I run across people with long guns quite often. I don't have any problem with it what so ever. Matter of fact I am glad to see it. I am a gun nut. And while I don't understand the OC thing I still do not hassle people doing it. Matter of fact, as a general rule I seldom even check permits if nothing else appears to be going on. I figure if a guy tells you he has one then he does. If I get sent on a MWAG call I am required by SOP to attempt to locate and ascertain their intentions and legal status. As of late that has been happening a LOT for some reason. But then again we have a very ignorant dispatch center. Last night I got sent on a suspicious persons call. The call said a 35 year old and a ten year old male walking down a street. It went on to say the caller was not sure what they were up to or if they should be together. I hit in and asked what they were supposedly doing that was suspicious. I was answered by "Just walking and the RP wants them checked out"!!!! I promptly hit back in with "In service". This was a 911 call no less! Some people I swear. My point with all that is if dispatchers would use a little common sense we could avoid much of the nonsense.

On the other end of the spectrum. We had a run last night where we were had to place a guy in the hospital for an overdose. Once there a nures asked us if we were ther for the guy who was shot. Had no idea about it. We started talking to him and he gave us a drive-by type incident. The angle would have been pretty bad for him to have done it himself. Any way it goes there are some really bad people out there carrying that don't need to.

 

[jsx1043]

I might hop in on this one as well. I'm a ten year LE vet and carry a G22 with 3 spare mags on the belt, an 870 and AR15 in the trunk, with a chest rig and 3 spare Pmags. (Looking for plates too...maybe...) I'll be damned if I'm going to be outgunned when the local school shooter, Beslan terrorist, Jihadist or disgruntled worker tries to inflict carnage against my fellow hoosiers.

I sincerely wish that firearms ownership was taken much more seriously by the general public and our government. Not only is it a right, but it could be called a duty, being a citizen and patriot, to be prepared to defend your family and fellow citizens against any threat.

Titanium_Frost, when it comes to long arms, it's a 'sticky' situation. Not in the terms of legality, but in the terms of public perception. The sheeple barely even tolerate handguns, so the presence of a long gun must be nothing but evil! I wish every good 2A citizen carried a shotgun or rifle in the trunk and had the will to use it when the time came, but the public is not ready for it. If by chance there were shots fired and a good, well-armed citizen stepped up to meet the threat, any sheeple in the area would only see them as a threat and as the bad-guy. Then, we as responders are given that information, and we can only go off of what we are given. Unfortunately, at this time in our society, it is a recipe for disaster (in a circumstance as described above.)

As for having a long arm (or other tools) in the trunk during a stop? In my case, hell, I'll just sit and talk shop with you and send you on your way. As for some other guys...well, everybody's different. Let your own OPSEC take precedent.

 

[thebishopp]

The thing is police were never meant to responsible for protecting us. Heck the Supreme Court ruled back in 05 that police do not have a constitutional duty to protect people from harm.

This should have been obvious but apparently it took a supreme court ruling to clarify.

Of course my opinion is that when the government takes away a persons right and ability to protect themselves then they now have an obligation to provide what they have taken away.

I hear the police in norway were being criticized for their response time. This is just ridiculous.

 

[lrahm]

I might hop in on this one as well. I'm a ten year LE vet and carry a G22 with 3 spare mags on the belt, an 870 and AR15 in the trunk, with a chest rig and 3 spare Pmags. (Looking for plates too...maybe...) I'll be damned if I'm going to be outgunned when the local school shooter, Beslan terrorist, Jihadist or disgruntled worker tries to inflict carnage against my fellow hoosiers.

I sincerely wish that firearms ownership was taken much more seriously by the general public and our government. Not only is it a right, but it could be called a duty, being a citizen and patriot, to be prepared to defend your family and fellow citizens against any threat.

Titanium_Frost, when it comes to long arms, it's a 'sticky' situation. Not in the terms of legality, but in the terms of public perception. The sheeple barely even tolerate handguns, so the presence of a long gun must be nothing but evil! I wish every good 2A citizen carried a shotgun or rifle in the trunk and had the will to use it when the time came, but the public is not ready for it. If by chance there were shots fired and a good, well-armed citizen stepped up to meet the threat, any sheeple in the area would only see them as a threat and as the bad-guy. Then, we as responders are given that information, and we can only go off of what we are given. Unfortunately, at this time in our society, it is a recipe for disaster (in a circumstance as described above.)

As for having a long arm (or other tools) in the trunk during a stop? In my case, hell, I'll just sit and talk shop with you and send you on your way. As for some other guys...well, everybody's different. Let your own OPSEC take precedent.

I might have to look into a chest rig. We wear BDU type uniforms. I can easily slide and extra mag into it but something like that would be much better. Thanks. Stay safe.

 

[thebishopp]

Sorry to have to disagree with you here, Irahm, but we've all seen the video footage from Columbine and VA Tech and that doesn't jibe with your take. Do they show up? Yep. Do they wait till everything's over before going in? Yep. Seems like every time there's an active shooter the cops hang out and wait and don't charge to the rescue, like on TV.

I think he is saying that his fellow leos don't shirk their duties just because they are "off duty" and have come in without needing to be called in.

The problem is that doesn't necessarily help out the people who are already dead or getting killed prior to their arrival or while they are setting up.

We probably all know (or most of us with any type of tactical training do) why police don't go rushing in.

I wouldn't say they "hang out and wait". It's not like they are just all standing around drinking coffee and eating doughnuts because they don't want to go in.

They have protocols for a reason. This is normally for tactical reasons. You just don't go rushing in without a clear picture of what's happening. In situations like Columbine, Virginia Tech, there is so much conflicting and spotty intel coming in that in most cases the responders don't really know what the heck is going on.

Unfortunately for the people involved that means that they have to wait (and in most cases die).

Now as I understand it they have changed a few things and are training for a small group to go in instead of having to wait around for swat.

In addition, while it may be "brave" for a single officer to go in after an active shooter when he has no idea what he is up against (one, two, three, four, etc. defensive and offensive capabilities, etc.) with just his sidearm or maybe even a shotgun or AR... it is also extremely foolish.

 

[dross]

I think he is saying that his fellow leos don't shirk their duties just because they are "off duty" and have come in without needing to be called in.

The problem is that doesn't necessarily help out the people who are already dead or getting killed prior to their arrival or while they are setting up.

We probably all know (or most of us with any type of tactical training do) why police don't go rushing in.

I wouldn't say they "hang out and wait". It's not like they are just all standing around drinking coffee and eating doughnuts because they don't want to go in.

They have protocols for a reason. This is normally for tactical reasons. You just don't go rushing in without a clear picture of what's happening. In situations like Columbine, Virginia Tech, there is so much conflicting and spotty intel coming in that in most cases the responders don't really know what the heck is going on.

Unfortunately for the people involved that means that they have to wait (and in most cases die).

Now as I understand it they have changed a few things and are training for a small group to go in instead of having to wait around for swat.

In addition, while it may be "brave" for a single officer to go in after an active shooter when he has no idea what he is up against (one, two, three, four, etc. defensive and offensive capabilities, etc.) with just his sidearm or maybe even a shotgun or AR... it is also extremely foolish.

I question the protocol that says they should wait. Why is it foolish for an officer to go in if shots are being fired inside the school and there is a delay in backup?

 

[lrahm]

I think he is saying that his fellow leos don't shirk their duties just because they are "off duty" and have come in without needing to be called in.

The problem is that doesn't necessarily help out the people who are already dead or getting killed prior to their arrival or while they are setting up.

We probably all know (or most of us with any type of tactical training do) why police don't go rushing in.

I wouldn't say they "hang out and wait". It's not like they are just all standing around drinking coffee and eating doughnuts because they don't want to go in.

They have protocols for a reason. This is normally for tactical reasons. You just don't go rushing in without a clear picture of what's happening. In situations like Columbine, Virginia Tech, there is so much conflicting and spotty intel coming in that in most cases the responders don't really know what the heck is going on.

Unfortunately for the people involved that means that they have to wait (and in most cases die).

Now as I understand it they have changed a few things and are training for a small group to go in instead of having to wait around for swat.

In addition, while it may be "brave" for a single officer to go in after an active shooter when he has no idea what he is up against (one, two, three, four, etc. defensive and offensive capabilities, etc.) with just his sidearm or maybe even a shotgun or AR... it is also extremely foolish.

It might be foolish (I agree) but it is something that has to be done. The main thing is not to let things get worse than they are at that time. Hopefully dispatch will be receiving quality info of number and descriptions of bad guys before we even show up. More than likely with the response I saw last year there won't be a single officer. At Reitz, at least 70 showed up on duty and off. Most at the same time.

 

[sweddle]

JSX1043, your comment is one of the best I have seen in a very long time. Bravo Zulu to you! "Not only is it a right, but it could be called a duty, being a citizen and patriot, to be prepared to defend your family and fellow citizens against any threat."

 

[gunowner930]

I might hop in on this one as well. I'm a ten year LE vet and carry a G22 with 3 spare mags on the belt, an 870 and AR15 in the trunk, with a chest rig and 3 spare Pmags. (Looking for plates too...maybe...) I'll be damned if I'm going to be outgunned when the local school shooter, Beslan terrorist, Jihadist or disgruntled worker tries to inflict carnage against my fellow hoosiers.

I sincerely wish that firearms ownership was taken much more seriously by the general public and our government. Not only is it a right, but it could be called a duty, being a citizen and patriot, to be prepared to defend your family and fellow citizens against any threat.

Titanium_Frost, when it comes to long arms, it's a 'sticky' situation. Not in the terms of legality, but in the terms of public perception. The sheeple barely even tolerate handguns, so the presence of a long gun must be nothing but evil! I wish every good 2A citizen carried a shotgun or rifle in the trunk and had the will to use it when the time came, but the public is not ready for it. If by chance there were shots fired and a good, well-armed citizen stepped up to meet the threat, any sheeple in the area would only see them as a threat and as the bad-guy. Then, we as responders are given that information, and we can only go off of what we are given. Unfortunately, at this time in our society, it is a recipe for disaster (in a circumstance as described above.)

As for having a long arm (or other tools) in the trunk during a stop? In my case, hell, I'll just sit and talk shop with you and send you on your way. As for some other guys...well, everybody's different. Let your own OPSEC take precedent.

Looks like the INGO LEOs are prepared to respond. I make the personal choice not to carry my AR in my car. In most situtations, if I can get to my car I can get away from a threat, and I sure as hell wouldn't open carry it. I could just be walking around with it then law enforcement gets a call about a crazy man with a super high-powered assault machinegun.

 

[Hayseed_40]

Training for active shooter in a school building (with realistic yet fake radio traffic, "bloody" hostages, clingy hostages, big dirtybutts, lights out, dishevelled furniture) is the most sobering training I have rec'd.

 

[indyjoe]

The news feed I checked listed the count at 92, others 80 and others 81. That's 80, 81 or 92 too many.

Such a tragedy, ripping into the lives of literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people.

Unfortunately, you know what "they" say about a tragedy.

I think those might be combination of the deaths in the blast and on the island. Reading through online info for transportation of firearms, it looks like there really isn't a provision for carry. I would have been nice to end this much sooner than nearly a hundred kids being murdered.

 

[jsx1043]

It looks like LE was even there on scene, when Breivik arrived. He was one of the first killed.

"The Crown Princess of Norway's step-brother was one of the first victims gunned down in the massacre that left 86 dead at a youth summer camp.
Trond Berntsen, the son of Princess Mette-Marit's late stepfather, was among those killed when Anders Behring Breivik opened fire at the Labour party camp on Utoya island.
An off-duty police officer, Mr Berntsen had been hired to provide private security to the island retreat, and was one of the first killed by the white-supremacist gunman."


Read more: Norway shooting: Crown Princess's step-brother Trond Berntsen killed by Anders Behring Breivik | Mail Online

 

[j706]

It might be foolish (I agree) but it is something that has to be done. The main thing is not to let things get worse than they are at that time. Hopefully dispatch will be receiving quality info of number and descriptions of bad guys before we even show up. More than likely with the response I saw last year there won't be a single officer. At Reitz, at least 70 showed up on duty and off. Most at the same time.

Our current policy and training says that if you are the only officer on scene and shots are being fired, you go in period. If it involves driving through a door to make entry, do what you have to do. There is a fine line with this type of situation. You do not want to go rushing in to a barricaded subject but yet you had better not be standing around outside waiting while people are actively being killed. I understand that the ERT/SWAT training and mindset is somewhat different.

 

[hondatech2k2]

gun free zones DO NOT WORK. unfortunately, this is not the lessons that will be drawn from this.

Well, simply put.....you must have some degree of intelligence to think that way. And alas, they lack in that department.

 

[mrortega]

Yes we sure have. I just finished the ILEA active shooter response instructor class. This is put on by the academy and is a three day course with a lot of simunitions.

Same here in regards to equipment. I carry a 870, a scoped Remington 700 PSS in .308 and a select fire Colt 14.5" M4 and a Noveke barreled precision scoped AR. Different guns for different jobs. I also carry 20 loaded 30 round mags in my car. Also carry armor with SAPI plates and a Kevlar helmet. The main reason for all the magazines is that most of our guys only have two.

We will now be doing hands on active shooter classes twice a year.

Holy firepower, Batman! I'm glad to hear about all the heavy weapons. I guess a lot of agencies learned from the North Hollywood shoot out about having some real firepower.