A discussion with a friend in MI about self defense.

[Glock19Dude]

I was talking to a friend of mine in MI about how I just got my LTCH. He received his CCW (the MI equivalent to carry) about a week before. We were discussing the laws and I asked of a certain scenario that came up in his CCW class of the "what if" nature. My question was....If I am somewhere where I can legally carry and am doing so in a peaceful manner and some drunk a**hole wants to start a fight with me for no reason. (this has happened to me before) If he shows signs of aggression toward me, I wondered if I can draw my weapon and shoot him or do I have to fist-fight this drunk because he didn't produce a weapon on me, therefor I cannot use deadly force on him.

Our responses were different. I said just because he doesn't have a weapon on him doesn't mean he couldn't impose a lot of physical harm on me with his hands alone. Let's be realistic, people can kill with just their bare hands. I said I would show my gun (in the holster) with my hand on it and tell the drunk, "if you come any closer to me I will draw and shoot you" I didn't apply for my LTCH to not use my weapon to protect myself, and I sure as hell won't take a beating because of fear of drawing my weapon on someone who want's to start a fight for no reason.
My friend had said: "in our class the instructor told us you have to run away first and if the person pursues you, then you can draw and use your weapon" Run away???? WTF, I wouldn't.

I know every state has different laws regarding issues similar to this. As far as I concerned if ANYONE threatens you with violence you have a right to protect yourself /(people your with) from said violence. In MI they tell everyone to use your gun as the very last resort. I understand but I'm not going to run from someone. Just seems a little silly to me. I hope I never have to draw my gun on someone, but again, I'm not going to back down to some violent a**hole either.

Any specific laws on a situation like this? I know every situation is different from the next and it seems to come down to making the right decision at that exact moment. What are people's thoughts on this issue?

 

[garagegunmaker]

In indiana we have no "duty to retreat". You do not have to run away. Hopfully someone will post the IC about this to help you more.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

My short answer:

It depends.


Depends on myriad factors: How drunk is the guy? What surroundings are you in? Does he have a bunch of drunk friends? How big is the guy? (Brock Lesnar type guy or a SavageEagle type guy?)

A drunk, violent big dude like Brock Lesnar can do some MAJOR damage with his fists alone. Another guy of lesser stature probably couldn't do much drunken damage.

So, small guy who's drunk and violent...who has a weapon = weaponless big guy who's drunk and violent.

Also depends on how many friends YOU have.

It depends...there isn't ever one pat answer to any of these "what if" scenarios. Each and every one of them has their own unique set of variables that must be determined and analyzed "in a split second" before anything goes down.

-J-

ETA: To SavageEagle... Sorry, dude. I honestly and truly don't mean to pick on you specifically, I promise.

 

[King Matthew]

I don't think that it is a question of how drunk.....or even drunk at all.....but I don't know the answer.

 

[LPMan59]

you do not have a duty to retreat, but if i could i would.

that said, i have never been in a fight in my life and probably cannot beat up most women. so if a guy who loves glocks and 1911s wanted to fight me, say over a Colt LW Commander I sold to a 3rd party, i would probably be in fear of my life. (thats for you ihateiraq)

 

[ihateiraq]

you do not have a duty to retreat, but if i could i would.

that said, i have never been in a fight in my life and probably cannot beat up most women. so if a guy who loves glocks and 1911s wanted to fight me, say over a Colt LW Commander I sold to a 3rd party, i would probably be in fear of my life. (thats for you ihateiraq)

even if youre afraid for your life, its probably not in your best interest to shoot him. he would probably punch the bullets out of midair back at you with more velocity than they left your gun.

 

[Archaic_Entity]

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

If you feel they are a threat that could harm you, you are legally allowed to draw in the state of Indiana without necessity of retreat.

[excerpt]
Act 328 of 1931 Chapter XXXIII
750.200i Unlawful acts; penalties.
750.200j Additional unlawful acts; penalties.
750.200k Applicability of § 750.200h to 750.200j; exceptions.
600.2922b Use of deadly force or other than deadly force by individual in self-defense;
immunity from civil liability.
600.2922c Individual sued for using deadly force or force other than deadly force; award of
attorney fees and costs; conditions
768.21c Use of deadly force by individual in own dwelling; "dwelling" defined.
780.971 Short title.
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
780.973 Duty to retreat; effect of act on common law.
780.974 Right to use deadly force; effect of act on common law.
780.951 Individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force; presumption; definitions

This is not the whole Michigan law, but it states that they have a duty to retreat. Meaning: prior to any act pertaining to his personal defense he must first attempt to retreat from the situation. Afterwards, he can then draw.

So, you're both right. Only... Indiana's better.

 

[Cemetery-man]

IMO, the smart move would be to turn and get away, avoiding the situation completely. If you shoot and kill an unarmed person to avoid a confrontation with a drunk you better have a few witnesses and a darn good lawyer that can prove your life was in immediate danger.

 

[Suprtek]

I can see possibility of this situation ending with a dead drunk a**hole without any laws being broken. However, I must add that drunk a**holes that are looking for a fight generally just don't appear out of nowhere. Hard to believe you couldn't see them coming in plenty of time to avoid. If not, you might be hanging out in the wrong places.

 

[BearArms]

This situation actually happened to me back in October of 2009. Somebody I had never seen before started yelling at me from a car, then got out and proceeded to tell me he was going to beat my ass. I tried walking away like 4 times, and then he punched me in the back of the head as I walked away (my fault for turning my back). I am 5'7"ish and about 160lbs, he was about 6'4" and 250lbs. At this point I presented my firearm from a distance of about 15 feet. Boy was he surprised! This guy has a neck tattoo if that paints a better picture for anyone. I yelled "This **** stops right now". He proceeded to ask me if I was going to shoot him, then told me my Walther PPS .40 was a pellet gun. I told him that he didn't want to find out. He finally backed down and went into his apartment. I called IMPD, they showed up about 10 minutes later. The one officer talked to the guy through a screen door. But apparently they couldn't do anything because he was inside and wouldn't come out. I had plenty of witnesses and I am really really glad I didn't have to shoot this *******. The simple presence of my firearm was enough to deescalate the situation. IMPD has done nothing since and the Detective basically told me that he was leaving it up to me to get this guys name.

 

[SirRealism]

It's something I've thought about many times.

I see no reason to take a beating. But I'd try to extricate myself from the situation. Regardless of whether I was in the right, I think I'm going to feel much better about my actions if I knew I tried to avoid using deadly force. I've heard killing someone changes you for life, and I hope not to find out.

 

[Tenacious1]

As is the case with many hypothetical scenarios, I don't think there is a catch all answer. I don't want to ever have to shoot anyone. But I will not risk serious injury or death debating what I should do. If I can safely de-escalate the situation while retreating from conflict, I will alway do that first. As the threat warrants, I am cornered, out numbered, threatened, see a weapon (beer bottle, knife, rock, gun, etc.) my anxiety level is sure to dictate the level of threat I percieve at the time. My judgement will follow my conience, training and instinct.

That said, in these "what if" scenarios, a new wrinkle is added when the scenario adds a loved one that may not be able to retreat or think the way I do. I fall back to the previous mind set. My gut will get my mind in the right gear based on the threat level. Fight or flight is normally decided in milliseconds. In my experience (limited), there is not normally a lot of mental consideration about whether or not I feel that I or a loved one is threatened. It is more like a switch.

Oddly, in the one time I ever had to draw my weapon in self defense, it was against my neighbor's pitbull on a Sunday after church with my family sitting in the truck. The DANGEROUS animal was sitting in the front lawn when we pulled up. I told the family to stay in the truck while I went and told "Chris" his dog was loose. I lost site of the dog as I came around the back of my truck. It had walked up to the passenger side and attacked me as I surprised it. I don't remember exactly what order things happened next, but according to my wife who had dialed 911 on her cell phone before she saw me draw, I was in a full backward sprint and screaming "CHRIS" at the top of my lungs with my .357 snubby drawn. The dog broke off and retreated about 3 feet in front of me when "Chris" called for it. It peed on the pavement on its way back to its house. I found myself standing in our court, heart pounding out of my chest, adrenaline pumping, gun drawn, in my Sunday best in front of half the neighborhood.

As I reflected on the situation later, I decided that I had indeed intended to shoot the dog. But it stopped attacking right before the trigger snapped and the situation changed. It was an incredible learning lesson and oddly, I am thankful for the experience. I didn't have to think about what to do, but I think I did everything right.

"Chris" got rid of that dog after a discussion with him about his dogs. He had no hard feelings about me almost killing his dog.

 

[WIZZO499]

Well, in the letter the Lafayette PD sent me after I applied, they said you can use lethal force when threatened with the possibility of deadly force or great bodily harm.

I read that as such: Don't shoot the 90lb drunk bimbo that wants to b*tchslap you for looking at her; shoot her 250lb linebacker boyfriend that says he's gonna stomp your a$$. Just kind of a rough example.

 

[g00n24]

Like others have said there are many factors at work here...
Let's say the guy is about your size or even just slightly bigger, given that he is drunk you should be able to get in a quick strike to a sensitive area (nose, groin...) and get away without further problems. However, you also have to consider, if you dont try to get away/retreat, that if a struggle ensues your gun will now be in reaching distance of this aggressor...you never know what can happen in a fight (unless you have some great training, and they have none)...so taking a hit to your pride and getting away, if possible, is probably the best option. I mean what's a better option here?...letting a drunk guy brag to his friends he chased off some little biatch, or having to go through the ordeal of killing someone who, as far as you know, is unarmed?

As others have said, if the guy is huge and definitely able to inflict some serious bodily harm/death...back up, shout orders, make it known to anyone around that you see him as a threat to your life, and do what you have to do if it comes to that.

I've stated on this site several times that I believe (I have yet to have to deploy such techniques) that an extremely bright LED flashlight would disorientate any aggressor and give you a chance to get the upper hand on the situation. Also, a nice face full of OC spray should give a good hurtin and lessen to any drunk idiot that wants to start crap for no reason. Taking a life should be the very last option. If you have the chance to deploy other means to end the threat/threatening situation...I believe it would behoove anyone to do so IMHO.

 

[Glock19Dude]

Thanks for the info/input from everyone. I'm not that big of a guy so this is why I had talked about this with my friend. I've had a situation happen before where larger guys have wanted to fight myself and friends for NO reason at all. They were just a bunch of muscle-head a**holes that were trying to be tough. I guess it shouldn't matter if the person is drunk or not, if he is threatening me with violence, then I would have to react somehow. Preferably NOT with my handgun, but if I felt like I was in danger I would.

BearArms, that is a good story about dealing with some a**hole that wants to fight for no reason. Another good scenerio on whether to draw or not. I've had to leave situations when I was younger because someone bigger than me wanted to fight for no reason. My hometown in MI isn't the safest place for kids growing up, and I've always been on the smaller side which didn't help.

 

[SirRealism]

One positive impact of carrying has been my reassessment of where I hang out and how I act when driving. I'm much more careful about the watering holes I frequent and the... errrrmmm... "suggestions" I might make to careless drivers.

(Not an indictment of the OP or anyone else in this thread... just a personal thing.)

 

[Joe Williams]

In indiana we have no "duty to retreat". You do not have to run away. Hopfully someone will post the IC about this to help you more.

We may have no duty to retreat, but I will anyway given half a chance. I have no wish to kill someone's son, father, husband just because he went out and got ignorant one night and couldn't hold is liquor. If I have to fire to protect myself against serious harm, I will do so regardless of whether the weapon my agressor is using is a gun, knife or bare hands. But only if I really have to... I'd rather just let the drunk stumble after me while I run.

 

[EvilleDoug]

Find yourself some information on "Disparity of force", I think that's what it's called.

Read up on it and then find the Indiana statutes and combine the two.

Le Doug

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I have to say it's very situational. Lets say it's one guy, and you can walk away. I think it would not be the right move to shoot. Now if you are cornered, and you honestly feel that he poses as a deadly threat. Meaning not a fist fight, but a chance of serious bodily injury or death. Then it comes down to be tried by twelve, or carried by six. That's a decesion you'll have to make, and live with. There is no set steps to take in a situation like that. "Not meaning draw, and shoot whenever you feel threatened". Just remember if you pull the trigger, you better have your story wired straight for court. We can say how we think we would react, in a situation like that. However you never know until it happens. Just Pray you never have to, but always be ready and vigilant. Train, train, train that's best thing you can do.

 

[Jon Craig]

The problem I see, is that once the gun is out of the bag so to speak, you're going to have to either shoot, flee, make him flee, or defuse the situation. Otherwise, you could end up disarmed and shot...